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Shawna Rodrigues [: 00:00:00

Have you heard of the stress cycle? It's a cycle our body needs to go through in order to completely move through the chemicals that are released when we experience stress. I mean, we've all heard of stress. We've all experienced it. We've also heard of burnout. And not completing this cycle, of what can contribute to burnout.

Shawna Rodrigues [: 00:00:21

This need for the stress and the stressor to be dealt with separately may be a newer concept I know it was for me. Today's conversation is also unique because if we get to be joined by a friend of mine, a fellow MSW, someone with a master's in social work who has a wonderful perspective and can really add to our conversation. around the powerful impact the completing the stress cycle can have on buffering burnout. This is such an important conversation. This is only part 1 of 2. So stick around to the end to make sure you see how you can apply this to your life and join us again next week for more. Welcome to the great show, where our focus is growth on purpose. I'm your host, Shawna Rodrigues. and I'm an energy part of this community as we journey together with our grit intact to learn more about how to thrive and how to get the most out of life. It means a lot that you are here today. As you listen, I encourage you to think of who may appreciate the tidbits of knowledge we are sharing. and to take a moment to pass this along to them. Everyone appreciates a friend that thinks of them, and these conversations are meant to be shared. and to spark even more connections. Today, we are so fortunate to have with us, Matt McKinnon. He is someone I have been privileged to call a friend for, oh, longer than I wanna count, but a very, very, very lucky to count for as long as I have. Matt and I first met working together in head start, some time ago. Decade plus, couple of decades a while ago. It's been a while. It's been a while. Look to say that. He is currently working in hospice that has been doing home visiting for 15 years because he's first started doing that with the histar program. is a masters in social work. He definitely says he's no expert when it comes to our topic today, but the reason I value Matt so much is he is so useful to reflect with and to be able to bounce ideas off of and to give you insight. And his way of looking at things in perspective is just so valuable. So thank you so much for being here today, Matt. I am grateful to have this conversation with you today on burnout and helping us working through the cycle of emotions.

Matt McKinnon [: 00:02:36

Thank you for having me. I appreciate it. And, very happy to be here.

Shawna Rodrigues [: 00:02:43

Well, good. So as an exercise for us to prepare for his conversation, Matt and I both read the book, burnout, burnout. burnout burnout burnout.

Matt McKinnon [: 00:02:54

Lots of burnout.

Shawna Rodrigues [: 00:02:55

Lots of burnout. the secret to unlocking the stress cycle. And so we're gonna do a two part -- to this conversation. So today, we're gonna kinda focus a little bit on this book that we both read. It was by Emily Nagoski and her sister, Amelia Nagoski. And They are twins who did this work together around burnout and the stress cycle. And I got a lot out of the book and got not to read it and come have a conversation because I wanted to be dialogue around this because we both worked in social work and both know things are too up or not. Would you say?

Matt McKinnon [: 00:03:27

Yes. So the book was great. Very helpful. And I listened to them on some podcasts and things too. So, yeah, very helpful. Lots to talk about

Shawna Rodrigues [: 00:03:35

Lots of chew on. So we're gonna chat a little bit about the burnout and the stress cycle this episode. And then next episode, we're gonna talk a little bit more about kind of our reflections on where things are at and how we kinda get to that next phase and how we kind of support and think about where these things are. So I'm excited for both of these parts of our conversation. Sounds great. A wonderful. A plan. Yes. So for me, this concept of the stress cycle was kind of groundbreaking. And again, we both have masters and so work. We both have master's programs from 2 different. You went to Portland State in Oregon. I went to Boston University in Boston, but this wasn't really something I felt like I learned about when I was in graduate school. and feel like it's something that I should have learned more about, or I'm grateful to be learning about now. What are your thoughts on this stress cycle and importance of understanding it?

Matt McKinnon [: 00:04:22

Yeah. I mean, I would say the same. Some things, I think, were were a little familiar right away, the thing that was most impactful for me is separating out, like, the stressors in my life or in my day, and then, like, my stress and how those are separate. There's the stressor and then the physiological experience of stress. in our bodies and separating those out and being able to deal with them separately and in different ways. And that was really enlightening for me. Like, I had never framed it up this way. Thought about things like this loosely, but yeah, the book, it was really helpful the way they framed it up.

Shawna Rodrigues [: 00:05:03

Yeah. I think that I remember learning about the difference between good stress and bad stress and youth stress and, like, all this type of stuff about how not all stress is bad and That's a good thing. I remember, like, learning about that and needing to, like, figure that out. She'd be like, okay. This is still stress, but it's a good stress. And, like, it's almost felt like it was constantly trying to, like, Brain wash me to not be so stressed by not getting all stressed bad, and it was more just powering through and just that put on your Big girl panties, just keep going and doing and and pushing and muscling your mind through everything instead of actually, like, processing and feeling and experiencing. And I feel like this book was kind of helping me to actually process and experience and understand the physiological aspects of this as well.

Matt McKinnon [: 00:05:46

For sure. Yeah. And I would share similar thoughts about just sort of stress management techniques or things being phrased dot Kinda that way focusing more on, like, the stressors and how to deal with things. Like you said, positive stress, negative stress, you know, different events in a life like a car accident versus a wedding or something, like stressful events, but viewed differently. And, yeah, the way this is framed up with, a real physiological experience in the body and how to work with, you know, that experience and moving through it is something that I felt very new for me. And then impactful and encouraging. Like, once it was framed up in a way that was separating things out and kind of making that make sense. There was a lot of encouragement in next steps and how to how to work through the stress cycle and and what they were talking about.

Shawna Rodrigues [: 00:06:34

And thinking about how much we logic our way out of stress and think that, like, we've taken care of the stress award. We've taken care of that. So even, like, Right now, we're trying to figure out where to board our cats because we have a trip that we're coming up, and it's ridiculously silly things because we don't have our house. We're trying to sell it. It's being shown. Cats can't be there. The trailer that my fiance is living in is not where they can be because that's gonna go with us to yellowstone, and we're not about to have cats get out yellowstone. So the logistics of it is stressful, so we figure the logistics, the stress of it is gone, but this whole concept is saying that just because you like figure out the details just because you take care of the logical, like, resolve the issue, you can still have the anxiety of figuring it out that you have in full work through. And this is a very innocuous example. There's much bigger examples, but just this concept, and once I solve something, I may not be done working through the stress of it. is the whole concept that, like, we never think about. Right?

Matt McKinnon [: 00:07:27

Right. Absolutely. A good current example, right, where once you're done with the planning or the thing moving on, there's sort of that expectation of dealing with it, like, cognitively and then moving forward and not dealing with. That experience was like for your whole body.

Shawna Rodrigues [: 00:07:47

Yes. And just to push through and keep on pushing through. Keep on pushing. And we do so much of that in our world and in our society, and that's there's actually a complete cycle, you need to work through doing it. An example they use in the book is that you've been chased by a tiger that actually, you know, you get safe out of harm, it doesn't actually, like, end with you being safe out of harm. There's actually, like, you go tell somebody about it. You actually, like, go through telling the story, or you actually kill the tiger and there's a ritual to, take care of the tiger and do whatever else. So there's these, like, completion of cycles with handling the situation to actually work you to the other side. And so, like, you run and you stop, like, I'm fine now. And, okay, we're gonna just move on with our day that their action needs to be rituals and completions of the cycles for you to get to the other side of them. And that's the other piece that it talks about a little bit is the it calls it the human giver syndrome, but I think it's really this concept of how much we as individuals in our society, especially for what men it kind of focuses on that piece. But I think a lot of people that we kind of close their mouths and don't respond to something. And for women a lot, I feel like for me, what spoke to me was the safety element of what I'm in a difficult situation. I remember being on the train in DC and having this conversation that when somebody is acting away towards me and being disruptive and doing stuff is making me uncomfortable, that you just ignore them. You put on a funny face. You laugh. You act like it's not a big deal. And then you got to train and go home and go to bed. instead of actually, like, being able to process what happened and finish those emotions that you shoved down to keep yourself safe in that situation, It's like a really good example. It's probably more prominent for women, but I'm sure it happens to people different situations that because you don't actually work through that full cycle because you're doing the polite thing, the necessary thing. And I just had an article I put up on my Facebook about a mom talking about defending her daughter against the grandpa that was, you know, playing aggressively with whatever else and being the voice for her daughter to say to stop playing that way because she didn't like that. that she did stand up for her daughter by the time you don't get to stand up in the situation because it's too difficult with your family. And you just move on and go make the dinner and go do the things and don't get to complete the stress cycle of how hard that was to to deal with that and to bump up against those situations. And so for each of us, there's different ways that we go through our days that we don't get to you know, yell at the person who bothered us at the grocery store that we don't, and people are doing more of that. But those things that we're pushing down that we don't actually recognize that we need to actually release those things and work through those things and that that's part of that not completing that cycle and getting to the other side of it is building up on us and weighing down on us and adding to us to our well-being and adding to burnout.

Matt McKinnon [: 00:10:30

Yeah. You know, I was reading through, like, there was a very, like, intentional part of what that would look like for each of us, like, how to complete that stress cycle and to realize after whatever the situation is that you just Give an example of, like, just breathing or or different things that we can do in a very, like, intentional way to allow our body to process and work through whatever the experience was that was stressful upsetting, frustrating, whatever it was. And for me, it felt hopeful and like understanding it better, but then like can be challenging also in a very intentional way doing some of the things that they talk about that can help our body is process and move through things as opposed to holding things and being quiet about things and not allowing ourselves to really express what we need to and sort of recover and heal.

Shawna Rodrigues [: 00:11:21

Yes. And have that full cycle. What were some of the things that spoke to you as ways to kind of complete that cycle and move to the other side of that cycle to make sure you get through it?

Matt McKinnon [: 00:11:29

Yeah. So, well, physical activity was one that they talked about a lot. And, I mean, we all have different things that we enjoy or or don't enjoy. which they talk about also. And so there's different options, but physical activity was one for sure, breathing in a very, like, focused intentional, slow, deep breathing kind of way. You know, I talked about big belly laughter just really being able to express joy in that way, you know, either with community, loved ones, whoever, or even just privately just being able to really laugh and allow your body to do that in a big way expressive. Do we need more Ted Lasso? That that was how that was helpful.

Shawna Rodrigues [: 00:12:10

That is the reason that Rovie and I discovered Ted Lasso and watched Ted Lasso. So some of the humor we got at that was from Ted Lasso.

Matt McKinnon [: 00:12:19

So, yes. Very, helpful to have, like, you know, things that can kinda spur the laughter or, like, a good cry. They talk about, like, a good big cry and And I believe there's examples of ways to kind of give that's not coming just sort of naturally to kind of spur that experience. And I was thinking about, for me, like, with my work, I've had go to songs that I've put on. like at the end of a day or the end of a week that I know are gonna bring the tears and the crying out. You know, if I'm a little hesitant to go there or whatever. So I so like just having some things that for me, like, are gonna help me laugh big or cry a lot if I need to specific songs that I used.

Shawna Rodrigues [: 00:13:04

I love the music does that for you. Do you mind sharing one?

Matt McKinnon [: 00:13:09

Well, I'll share the musician, is the Mountain Goats, and it's just, the lyrics and the song is like a personal experience, very connecting to, like, what I do for my work. end of life kind of things. and he, a group musician that I appreciated a lot before, and it just so happened. This song was one of his songs, and it's spoke to me and it I've used it a lot of times to cry if I need to cry. That's incredible. So having those things that we can all, like, whether Ted Lasso or a song or whatever it may be to help us -- Yeah. -- express.

Shawna Rodrigues [: 00:13:47

Yes. When my mom was when she was sick, when she was going through her, specifically through the treatment for her melanoma, when she's going through treatments, we're going down to San Francisco. for her treatments, and there's a lot going on and things are very chaotic. And watching Grey's anatomy was actually my guaranteed to make me cry most every week with that TV show, and it was therapeutic for me to be able to watch that show and to be able to just Practically cry on demand because that show was my my weird reason to cry and it was very helpful. So I definitely believe in the power of having outside Resources that could get you to cry when you need to. And there was movies that we had those moments with. You guys all met Laurie Leal on our previous episode. I think that was episode 54. I wanna say was her episode that she came on, but she and I have been friends for a long time. We lived together. There was this one time where we got Heavenly, I think, was what I wanted to watch, and we had to get tuna fish sandwiches that we made from fresh French bread. And we watched that show and cried. that was just like what I needed for whatever I was going through at the moment. I don't even remember what I was going through, but I wanted to watch that movie and cry was exactly what I needed at that moment in time. And so sometimes when you're, like, compelled to watch that, and one of my coaching executive coaching clients, we had nice talk about her not taking time to watch her show and feeling guilty when she had that and say, no. You need that, especially if it's a show. And she's like, it does make me cry. I'm like, you need that. That's something you need to set the time aside to have your time. Like, I remember seeing hearing somebody speak to talk about, like, your eyes are like, butters that need to be emptied. Like, the the tears. Like, you need to empty them regularly. but it's also like this completion of the stress cycle, and we all have stresses that we need to be able to process in doing that. But the intentionality too, I think that you recognize that you need to do that as part of that. And me realizing now, whereas it happened way back when my mom was that I did that without knowing I was doing that. And now I think I'm getting a little better about trying to remember that I need this, and that's why I'm doing that. I mean, your intent doing it. I think it's helpful as well to know.

Matt McKinnon [: 00:15:50

Yeah. And I think too there's some discussion too about how, like, sometimes intuitively we know, but maybe it can name it or whatever. And like and then also there is like very much the intentionality of it. noticing that this is probably a daily practice, right? Cause stressors are there daily. And again, not an easy thing to carve out time each day to do something intentional like this, you know, focusing on completing the stress cycle and our own bodies and physiology and that healing, and also very, very important, intentional. It's kind of the word that I keep coming back to because for me, having something like front of mind that's about health, wellness, and deserving to take the time to do something like this is important and not having, like, guilt about it or whatever. Like, it's it's important intentional. There's a purpose to it.

Shawna Rodrigues [: 00:16:43

Yeah. Yeah. It almost amazing how many different activities. because, of course, like, we've had, like, it's been a while. It's, like, back in the fall that Beau Beaumont was on around. and breathing because he’s used to stuff on breathing and breath work. Like, we talked to the different types of breath work. It can be something you can use as you can be really intentional with things like meditation and yoga and breathing. something for you to use, but I really think that things like, you know, watching a show that you know it's gonna make you cry or having something that helps you to process like that when you and I were speaking earlier, Matt and I spoke earlier about the her podcast that I hadn't heard, and they talked more about how having something could fully immerse yourself in can really help you do that. So that can be something like a video It can be something like a book. It can be something like reading. So these items that we think of as self maintenance and talk about regularly on this podcast, that those are actually things that are helping you complete your stress cycle and for you to actually be like, I'm going to go read a book because mom needs some time to maintain herself and do the tune up, which we'll talk about more in the next episode that the thoughts are on self maintenance, but that you need to do those things and that that's you taking care of yourself. And the more you frame it as that, the more benefits you're gonna get from it being that. Right? Absolutely. Yep. Yeah. That's an important piece of it, and I love that laughter is one of it. It's it's the reason you to hang out with more of your friends for this positive social interactions. Right? Absolutely. Just spend time with more of your friends that actually make you laugh. They're not polite draining interactions, but, like, people that actually make you belly laugh until you cry. So Am I gonna be your grit wit today, think of the last person that made you belly laugh till you cried? And then you need to call them because you need to spend time with those people. because those are important for completing that cycle and getting to the other side of it.

Matt McKinnon [: 00:18:25

Yeah. It's good to know our people that can draw these things out in us. I know you're one of mine. Hey. You're one of mine too. That just seems good to hang out more. For sure. I know. I got your permit. Oh, yeah.

Shawna Rodrigues [: 00:18:36

Like, leaving you a message, like, dude, you're stressed cycles calling. We need to I know. We gotta laugh. We gotta laugh. We gotta cover the good reason to laugh. I like it. I like it. Yes. But it also talks too about some of the physical contacts. as well too with affection with even just petting an animal, petting a cat or petting an animal as well as, like, an embrace is actually didn't they have, like, a timeline? I love it that you know that that -- 6 second kiss, 20 second hug. That was the -- I didn't understand that. -- the prem. The act actually, you, like, lowers your blood pressure and your heart rate and improves your mood. So you actually need to -- Yeah. -- 20 second hug. So that quick little hug is not enough for you to 20 second hug.

Matt McKinnon [: 00:19:15

There is part of that too where it's like for both in the embrace, there's a message of connection and love and, like, safety to to be close for that long. So that's like a message to our bodies, right? The this is a safe place for for my body, for me. with this safe person who also feels that with me and how that's just that kind of affection that's prolonged kind of gives us the messages or body the messages that are, you know, about safety, and comfort, and support. And I kinda was thinking like I was like, was the last time I gave you anyone a 20 second hug? I'm like, well

Shawna Rodrigues [: 00:19:51

Well as soon as this podcast is over man.

Matt McKinnon [: 00:19:54

I gotta start the stop watch right.

Shawna Rodrigues [: 00:19:51

Yeah. To actually pay attention to do that. Yes.

Matt McKinnon [: 00:19:58

because I know, like, with my family, like, it's hugs and embraces and work then it's just thinking about like a long embrace that's just holding like that. I mean, that's pretty. Pretty awesome. Mind, again, intentional

Shawna Rodrigues [: 00:20:14

Well, this goes back. So I moved to Boston, like, right before September 11th happened. Like, I'd been living there, like, a week when September 11th happened. And so I didn't know anyone very well in Boston. I met lots of lovely people when I first moved there, but not anyone I'd be hugging alone for seconds, right, as very new as a single woman in my early twenties. Very cautious and physical contact as it was. And when I came home, thankfully, I flew home to take care of, the little girl that I had Nannied. It was her brother's or mitzvah, And so they flew me home so I could kinda be around to help out with her at that event, and it was the best thing ever. And I tell you the person who put me up at the airport that I cried like a baby when they hugged me because I'm just, like, gonna cry just talking about it because I had not been hugged in 2 months at a time that our country, like, was falling apart. And it meant so much just to be held and just to be hugged because that meant so much to me. So that was definitely a 20 seecond hug, and that definitely liked that safety net connect like, is memorable to this day, and it's been a long time because that can make such a difference to fill that connection. Yeah. Absolutely. I cry a lot on my podcast. Maybe I record these episodes so I can see the footage page drop off.

Matt McKinnon [: 00:21:31

If it needs to come out, let it out. Right? Like, blaming that and let it out.

Shawna Rodrigues [: 00:21:36

Finish my cycle.

Matt McKinnon [: 00:21:39

I cried this morning before kind of I was just gonna say, like, let it out when he needs to come out. You know, honestly, like, preparing for this and doing some of the process and reading and, like, thinking about just kind of work things and, you know, like, I mentioned the songs before and stuff that, yes, just a little tears this morning. So and I also thought about that in a very different way this morning, like reading this and and engaging with this information, like The tears this morning felt different than, like, kind of before I was engaging with this information, which was interesting to me. kinda had a different awareness and let things flow a little or that I might, you know, previously just maybe you've settling into more comfort with my tears flow as I was engaging with this material.

Shawna Rodrigues [: 00:22:27

In realizing that this is necessary.

Matt McKinnon [: 00:22:31

let loose.

Shawna Rodrigues [: 00:22:32

Yes. So this needs to happen, and we need to complete that cycle because we do have so many stressors. Would you know we're getting more into, like, present day stressors a little more in the next episode, but it's just so true. Like, that every time you turn around, there's something else. And if you don't complete these cycles, they just keep compounding and piling on each other, and it's exhausting.

Matt McKinnon [: 00:22:54

Right. Yes.

Shawna Rodrigues [: 00:22:56

Which is what leads to Burnout Yes. burnout burnout burnout. Oh, cool. 5 of them. 5 burnouts on the cover. Yeah. Totally make that very clear. Very clear. Yes. So one of the other things he talked about too was the creative expression. Right. Yeah. Which I love that. And it's funny because I have been craving creativity so much lately and it's interesting because I had a home in Yakima, Washington sometime ago, spent some time but I actually had an art room there, and I have been missing that art room. And right now, we're in the process of selling our house to sew I don't feel like I can get out a canvas and make a mess. But I'm getting to the point right on care. Like, am I out? And they're gonna be a messy campus, and I don't care, because I really have this this desire to to do that. because it can be painting and sculpting, but also can be music and storytelling and writing and all the different ways that you can do that, create a piece and dancing and, like, expressing yourself that doing those things are a way for you to kind of transform and complete that cycle in a beautiful way. And I don't know if it was the book or where I saw, but there was somewhere that they were talking about. Somebody actually, like, written something or a dance about the loss they they experienced is a very intentional way of somebody transforming and to be manic. Like, a lot of artists in their society, which is why it's unfortunate when art does get taken out of schools or out of programs or ways of thinking, ways of processing is such an important way for people to be able to express and process and work through things. And if you're somebody who, like, obviously, we have a coloring book that is part It's a part of the Grit Show, the color of grit. And the color of books are meant so that you have a way to express and that you can have a way to to kind of lose yourself in doing the mindful coloring and, you know, you can scribble over and draw your own pictures. It doesn't really matter, but to have a way to kind of have that creativity and get in touch with that as a way to complete that cycle. So it's not even just about nourishing yourself. It's also about completing that cycle. I think it's important to have that perspective with it as well.

Matt McKinnon [: 00:25:10

Yeah. And, you know, it's like so many wonderful options, you know, to support us in completing the stress cycle and working through things. And like the creative expression, you know, I enjoy playing a little music from time time and just different ways of thinking about it in a different way than I did before. Like if I sit down with my guitar a little bit, You know, I can be intentional with it and get a little more creative with it and have it be kind of a personal experience that's part of something I need in that moment. And I think for me it was really encouraging to see, like, you know, as they're sharing all these options that we can do for to support this, like there's a lot of choices and a lot of options and a lot of things that we're already doing already or enjoy already and just like focusing in this way in a different way on why It's so helpful. felt encouraging and possible.

Shawna Rodrigues [: 00:26:02

Yeah. Why don't you go back when, like, when you have teenagers or when you were a teenager and, like, you wanted to draw. You wanted to play your music. You wanted to just go lay in the bed, listen to music, and cry. And you wanted to go watch movies that just made you cry and you want to go do all these things as like you were just building up your truar of how to process emotions and finish your stress cycles. And that's what your teen years are, perhaps. And that's what we be encouraging letting our teens do. Right? Like, as the kids are learning these skills and doing these things that if they need to process these emotions, then yes, Go play your music loud. Go bang those drums. Go play that guitar. Go do those things because that is your way of completing these cycles, go paint, go draw, go do those things because that is your way of doing this. That's great. And it's great too if you're giving the tools of I heard on this podcast. This is a really good way for you to be working through your motion, so I hope as you get older, you remember to do this that when you are filling, Overwhelmed. And life is getting stressful, and you feel like you have a lot on you that you remember this is your way of completing this cycle instead of pushing through that you take the time to get back to these things, that are ways for you to kinda complete the cycle for you and take care of yourself. And the self maintenance piece, which you're gonna talk about more next time.

Matt McKinnon [: 00:27:20

a great example about how we're a learning these things throughout our lives, the things that we enjoy, the things we're interested in, the things that feed us. And like I've been told, by family loved ones, like, you know, keep doing the things that feed you as long as you can. You know, especially if it's like something active or physical, it's like, You know, that at some point, I just maybe can't do as much or as often or as I get older or whatever, but, like, keep doing the things that feed you in As long as you can. And it's I mean, no. We know as often as you can daily, like, the things that really feed us in this way.

Shawna Rodrigues [: 00:27:55

Then our part of this cycle, you need to complete on a regular raise the stressors are not getting smaller and they're not getting fewer. Yes. And in in in the book and burn out burn out the secrets tounlocking the stress cycle, they talk about the real enemy. And it's kinda thinking about, like, what we might talk about in other circles as being kind of the patriarchy, the systems would be the things that push back that make it hard to survive and make it hard to get through. and kind of examples that I mentioned that as a woman on the subway feeling intimidated that that's the type of things they're talking about. So the real enemy or all these things are just baked into getting through your day. They make it hard to get through your day. That it's an enemy that's outside of you. That's just the way things are that you don't feel like you have control over. That's gonna take a long time to change that you can't change, but you have all these things you do have agency over. And all these ways you can nurture yourself, care for yourself, take care of yourself and that being aware that those are legitimate stressors that you are experiencing every day as you go through your life. And if you are a person of color, if you're a person who has other things in your world, people can't see that make it harder for you to get to the day, whether that be things that people can't see. Like, you have a hard time connecting with others. You have a hard time being able to understand what's going on in the world. Like, all these other factors that you're dealing with, that those things are the real enemy. Right? But you can't control those things. So you can just control you and how you handle your stressors and that you give yourself a gift of understanding that just because you solved the problem just because you managed to figure out a new home to move into just because you found a way to pay the bills this week or this month just because you found a way to get a new job. It doesn't mean that you haven't completed this trust cycle and that you don't need to care of yourself to get to the other side of the stress cycle, and there aren't maintenance things you need to do to kind of complete that. And that's kind of what we talked about with all these examples. You shared her today.

Matt McKinnon [: 00:29:41

Yeah. The daily maintenance of not only the structures and things that are part of our worlds, but like the other daily maintenance and behavior that we can do to lift ourselves up, support ourselves, and in a way push back against structures and things that are really difficult. Hard to push against. Yeah. Hard to push again. Yes. Hard to push against and to burn out the exhaustion Yeah. Very hard to push against. Pretty hard to push against. Yeah.

Shawna Rodrigues [: 00:30:09

So we've talked a little bit about what I call self maintenance, self care. And so, like, this is very much attached to. So what are some of the things that you've been doing in all honesty? Cause, again, like, you're learning all this with us and unlocking some of this as we go, but what have you been doing to kind of help maintain and take care of yourself in the last week or month?

Matt McKinnon [: 00:30:27

Well, I do, well, as often as possible, and now I'm gonna lean towards more often taken walks just around my neighborhood after work. or, you know, on weekends, like, whenever, because that's something I enjoy. The physical part of it. There's a little bit of a social aspect. I, like, live it's a neighborhood. Lots of folks walk through and ride bikes through and stuff. So there's a little bit of, a social aspect to it. And then just being outside really feeds me, and I enjoy that a lot and try to do it almost daily if I can. mum music for sure, whether it's listening to something that'll draw out. Tears or something for me or play in a little music You know, I think that's something I'll focus on more, like, intentionally is sitting down with my guitar and playing a little. And then you know what I'm gonna say next, some of it.

Shawna Rodrigues [: 00:31:19

I'm hoping you're gonna stay it dont leave out the coolest things about you, like please share.

Matt McKinnon [: 00:31:23

I love skateboarding.

Shawna Rodrigues [: 00:31:25

Yes there it is

Matt McKinnon [: 00:31:27

Thank you for cheering for me loving skateboarding

Shawna Rodrigues [: 00:31:30

Yeah. I love that about you That's what the most fun thing is about you. I love that about you.

Matt McKinnon [: 00:31:34

I’ve been skateboarding since I was thirteen years old. So decades, it's something that even this summer, I've been trying to do more, because it is one of the things that feeds me and has since I was a teenager. Like, you were talking about before, right? Like, I found it when I was thirteen. I know it feeds me. There's a creative expression, heart of skateboarding also that I enjoy has always fed me. and it's just one of the things that I know how it supports me mentally and physically when I take the time and carve out the time to do that. And so I've made that more of a priority lately and it's felt really good. to do that more. So those are some of my things. I love that. Thank you for encouraging my skateboard talk.

Shawna Rodrigues [: 00:32:22

And I love your skateboard talk. I seriously do. It's one of those things that I think is incredible that that you have something that you've enjoyed that long, and you've continued to make space and honor that because I think too often people let go of the things that they really enjoy like that for various reasons. mean, there's health reasons. There's different reasons people do have to let go of things of like that, but it's really impressive that you've managed to hold on to that. And it's I can see the way you light up when you talk about it, which makes me love and enjoy it because in fact, I do know that it is something that you get so much out of. So

Matt McKinnon [: 00:32:56

I appreciate that a lot. Thank you. Helmet, helmet, always safety, safety. I'll always say that about helmets.

Shawna Rodrigues [: 00:32:02

Yeah. That's why you're still doing it because you've been safe about it. and to do it. Yes. So in fact, I think we do the episode art for this. I'm gonna have a picture that has you and I present day, and then the other half is gonna have awesome picture. I have a view from skateboarding in a bowl that I have a really good photo of you. It's a big one. I do. Yeah. You've sent it to me. So it's why it says that one I -- I know what Yeah. Yeah. I'm talking about that. That's a good photo of you. So and do I have to get credit anywhere special? Will somebody sue me if I use it?

Matt McKinnon [: 00:33:28

well, it's a photo of me. So And, well, mom, one of my brothers came near near in the --

Shawna Rodrigues [: 00:33:35

Brothers can't come after me. Brothers can't come after me and say, yes. No. because that's just a different photo of you. I feel like that captures you. So Yeah. The good balance. Do it to have our, like, home visiting, big hearted mat who's done so much for families and so much for so long. that also has this awesome side of him that loves his skateboard that's, like, that genuine side of you as well. So I love the balance.

Matt McKinnon [: 00:33:55

Yeah. It's a big part of me, and I enjoy sharing that. And I appreciate you encouraging that. Oh, what how about for you? You mentioned me recently in my things. What about your thing.

Shawna Rodrigues [: 00:34:07

What about my self maintenance? Well, interesting, my self maintenance lately, because I've now decided it is self maintenance, is I have been watching a TV show. The love of my life doesn't care for drama. He does not care for drama TV shows. not his thing. Science fiction and comedy, which we do comedy together, which is great. And I don't mind science fiction at all. Sometimes there's good cash development and good drama, whatever else, so no problem. But like I said, like, my drama is my way to, like, you know, pull my heartstrings and make me cry and do whatever else. And so since we've been living in two different places, It's kind of funny that this conversation me realizing that my self care has been watching drama, so I started dear Edward on Apple TV. So that's the one that the author, the wrote the book, So it's obviously a a TV series based on the book. But the book, Chelsea wrote, she wrote a recent book that was on Oprah's book club. I think it might have been the 100th pick or something like that. think it's called Hello Beautiful that I want to read, but I also heard she had this show, and so I wanna check out the show and realize it may not be one that Robie be interested in. So I started watching that show, and it is a heartfelt drama, which is, like, more likely to lose a tears and get lost in those type of things. So I have been watching a heartfelt drama. Well, I've been away from my sweetheart because that's definitely not his thing. And I actually went and saw A movie last night that we discussed at a recommendation of a friend that was definitely tearjerker, heart wrenching, heartbreaking, important information. It was the sound of freedom, which is very much is about the children trafficking. It's very heartbreaking based on a true story, which makes it even more heartbreaking. But those are the things that my love of my life is not interested in in heartbreaking. He goes to get lots and a different side of things and whatever else, and he goes to see film and movies and so forth. I like to go process my emotions and my heartbreaking sadness when I see those things. So that has been my self maintenance is to Go watch drama while I better park my sweetheart so that's not his thing today that we normally do together. Cool? Yeah. Cool. Yes. New movies and new shows. Yeah. The thing that's wouldn't normally be part of that. I'm desperately wanting to paint or to do something creative now. So that's kinda gotten my we shouldn't do that.

Matt McKinnon [: 00:36:30

So I remember when I didnt know that you painted. Do you know what I’m gonna say? Belmont Streethouse, back in the day, didn't know you painted. And again, we're talking about creative expression to complete the stress cycle, the importance of the action. Right? That's what we're focusing on. And also I know And also, on your wall, there's a beautiful painting of a ballet dancer.

Shawna Rodrigues [: 00:36:55

Correct? Yeah. Two ballet dancers Yes. Yes.

Matt McKinnon [: 00:36:58

And I didn't know you painted. And I was like, woah, that's an amazing, beautiful painting under your wall. Who did that? And and you said it was you. And it was so beautiful. Then you showed me other paintings that you had done, and you had your space in that house and stuff. And and that's when we, like, first started hang, like, when we first met you. But I didn't know that. And, like, yeah, beautiful painting.

Shawna Rodrigues [: 00:37:22

And you actually have a painting of mine up at your house.

Matt McKinnon [: 00:37:27

I have a painting of yours. At my house, And you shared that how it's very meaningful for you and to do that that creative expression.

Shawna Rodrigues [: 00:37:32

Yeah. So Alright. That's it. When we moved to our new house in Bend, I had to have a painting space. I miss painting. I miss painting. And it's funny because I have friends who is funny if they're real artists. They are real artists. I have friends who have, like, Sold paintings all around the world. I have friends who are real artists, so it's so funny that I'm so intimidated as much as I love painting. I don't feel like I love painting, but I don't feel at least as a painter and artist, I just love to do it and have a few paintings whereas, like, I've published a couple books, so maybe I can hear an all but, like, the, yeah, the artists that I'm more intimidated by. Just because I know real artists. I know defined real. That's funny. No real authors, too. That sounds funny because I know famous authors, but, you know, that's kinda funny. But I guess I've known them that I was young. I didn't know Real authors the after I'd published a book, and then I met real authors. So then it was less intimidating because I didn't publish a book when I met them. Whereas, like, I knew real artists that were selling paintings around the world and doing real things with art before I ever tried art. So I was already intimidated before I tried. Whereas with writing, I didn't know people who published books before I got my book published. So it was the different. Yeah. Isn't that weird? Yeah very weird.

Matt McKinnon [: 00:38:45

I think it was on the podcast I listened to about the book burnout. the secret of unlocking the stress cycle, but I forget. I forget if it's Emily or Amelia. I apologize. But I think what Adam talked about writing that they write, and they write romance novels. Did you know that? – No. I did not know that – If I'm remembering wrong, I apologize. However, I'm always positive. That's what

Shawna Rodrigues [: 00:39:08

Is it the one that's the PhD or the one that conducts music? Cause Amelia conducts music that Emily is the one that

Matt McKinnon [: 00:38:14

I'm a twin. I apologize that I don't that I should I shouldn't be more definitive with my remembering year because I'm also, fratternal twin, but I forget because it was a podcast, but it was just audio. Right? Yeah. Yeah. It's a good thing. Yeah. It's just a voice of that. Yeah. I just don't remember. When you mentioned writing, which You've written books, and they didn't mention Romance novels It's just kept finding you.

Shawna Rodrigues [: 00:39:37

That's great. Yeah. Well, we do need to wrap this up. So what should we give everyone as their great but should we have them try to kind of identify which of the different ways of completing the cycle is something that they really kind of connect with and need to integrate, and it might just be if they need to start naming what they already do and giving themselves credit for what they're already doing that's completing the cycle that It is no longer. I'm just sitting on the couch watching a show that makes me cry every night as the kids go to bed when I'm exhausted that I am in fact completing my stress cycle for the day. processing my emotions for the day. And to be mindful and actually telling yourself before you sit down to do it, that this is what I'm doing. Totally.

Matt McKinnon [: 00:40:18

This is what I'm doing. And like you said, lots of things folks are probably already doing or enjoying already, and just can have a different focus and intention on these things. Yeah. That's a great one is figuring out what what we're already doing that can be helpful or trying something different, something new.

Shawna Rodrigues [: 00:40:35

Okay. Let's let's label some of these out. So there's the affection which can be petting your cat for a few minutes. It can be a 22nd hug or a 6 second kiss. That's one of them. What's one other one you got? physical activity

Matt McKinnon [: 00:40:49

and focus deep slow breathing.

Shawna Rodrigues [: 00:40:51

Nice. There's also positive social interaction, which should be something like actually deep belly laughing, connecting some more than just, you know, Just saying hi to somebody. You actually gotta connect and really connect. Oh, did we say a good cry? I don't know if you said that yet. The creative

Matt McKinnon [: 00:41:09

expression, a good a good cry.

Shawna Rodrigues [: 00:41:11

Do we talk about the the body tensing exercise where you tense with your body? I don't think we talked about that one. No. That was, yeah, that was in there.

Matt McKinnon [: 00:41:19

Yeah. About focusing on from kind of your feet to your head. Like, fencing and holding. different muscles, different parts of the body. It's like an intentional practice just laying, you know, on the floor or on on a bed.

Shawna Rodrigues [: 00:41:36

Yes. Uh-huh. And then we also talked about you just losing yourself in something, whether that was -- Right. -- show a video game, a book, like, to something that you just, like, really get yourself as long as you're really acknowledging that this is your way of just, like, letting go of the stressors and completing yourself through this cycle that can actually be beneficial. Yep. Alright. So whichever those things that you really feel like is something you already do or you want to do, do you be able to really just acknowledge and start grading that and to be able to walk away with that. So that's perfect. Yeah. Well, thank you. Lots of options. Lots of options. Like, lots of options. And we will be back to talk a little bit more about how kind of the connects with things and a little bit more with the definitions around burnout and stuff like that a little bit as well, but the stress cycle is where we kind of start with because I've definitely resonated with that. Yeah.

Matt McKinnon [: 00:42:25

Thank you for having me and for this topic. because you literally bought me the book.

Shawna Rodrigues [: 00:42:28

I harassed you, made you come talk with me. I'm good like that.

Matt McKinnon [: 00:42:32

This, so I appreciate it a lot. I mean, this is super helpful to learn about and read and with many things for as long as I've known you. I need to listen to your suggestions and Who's up there? They have great thoughts and ideas. There's great benefits. And this is super beneficial. This discussion and then this book and this topic. So thank you.

Shawna Rodrigues [: 00:42:54

Thank you for joining us today. I hope you enjoy this episode. Be sure to jump on over to Instagram and follow us @the.grit.show. And if you are already following Authentic Connections Podcast Network, @37by27, you'd definitely be doing that as well. Don't forget, you are the only one of you that this world has got, and that means something. I'll be here next Tuesday. I hope you are too.