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Shawna Rodrigues [: 00:00:00

Toxic relationships is a term that is becoming more common. But it may not be one that everyone is familiar with, or that you know how it actually applies to your life. On the Author Express episode that comes out tomorrow, I got to speak with Dana Diaz who wrote a memoir about the toxic relationship that trapped her for 30 years. In our conversation, she noted that she didn't even know what a narcissist was for the vast majority that time or how to make sense of the toxicity she was experiencing. For her, the levels of stress damaged her health so much that it was life threatening. I see it as divine intervention that these 2 guests for 2 different podcasts came into my world and booked the recordings with me 2 days apart. This is information that you or someone you know needs to hear. Once the episode on Author Express goes live, we'll add the link for it in the show notes. If what Shannon shares resonates with you or something you want to share with someone, be sure to join her new coaching program or tell them about it, and be sure to let her know that you heard about it here on The Grit Show podcast. In our conversation with Shannon, we're going to dive deep into toxic relationships. We'll talk about how folks recognize that they are in a toxic relationship and what that looks like. We'll discuss a journey in self-discovery and healing and learn about the importance of setting boundaries. We'll discuss how to regain our sense of self. How negative beliefs are planted at an early age, and how we can transform our lives by recognizing our value and refusing to accept disrespect. We'll even be sharing real life examples, and there'll be expert insight. There will be valuable tools and strategies to navigate toxic relationships and embark on the path towards deeper love of self and empowerment. I think it's a pretty amazing coincidence that you have this opportunity to learn from an expert. You'll hear more about Shannon in her bio about toxic relationships and a little bit about narcissism. And then to be able to hear a little bit about Dana Diaz’s story, if you hear her episode on the Author Express. And she has a memoir where you can hear in-depth what that experience is like for her. So, we have both solutions and deep understanding from Shannon about the work she's done with people experiencing this, as well as understanding deeper what it's like to be in that situation that we'll hear more about from Dana. I'm glad you're here, and I'm sure you'll get a lot out of it.

Shawna Rodrigues [: 00:02:35

Welcome to The Grit Show, where our focus is growth on purpose. I'm your host, Shawna Rodrigues, and I'm honored to be part of this community as we journey together with our grit intact to learn more about how to thrive and how to get the most out of life. It means a lot that you are here today. As you listen, I encourage you to think of who may appreciate the tidbits of knowledge we are sharing and to take a moment to pass this along to them. Everyone appreciates the friend that thinks of them, and these conversations are meant to be shared and to spark even more connections.

Shawna Rodrigues [: 00:03:12

Shannon earned her bachelor's degree from Bowdoin College and her master's in social work from the University of Connecticut. She earned her clinical license in social work and substance abuse counseling, and is a board-certified diplomat in clinical social work. Her new book, Out of the FOG, Into the CLEAR: Journaling to Help You Heal from Toxic Relationships, has attained Amazon bestseller status and self-help for abuse, codependency, and personal transformation. She also has an exciting new course she's working on about healing from toxic relationships that we'll talk a little bit more about today. On her YouTube channel, Therapist Talks, she shares insights, information, perspectives, and strategies on a wide range of relationship and mental health topics. We are so excited to have her here today. Welcome, Shannon.

Shannon Petrovich [: 00:03:53

Thanks so much, Shawna. I'm so excited to be here.

Shawna Rodrigues [: 00:03:56

Well, I'm excited. You are doing a variety of really important work, and I'm excited for us to hear more about it. We usually kind of start with talking with folks, how did you get into this work in the first place?

Shannon Petrovich [: 00:04:08

You know, I think it all started in high school. I was trying to figure out a toxic relationship that I was in, and I think going into college, I really pictured myself in medicine or veterinary medicine, and yet I kept kind of gravitating back to social work, therapy, mental health, and finally stopped fighting it and got my master's in social work and became a therapist. So, I think my journey really started with the fact that I didn't have anybody really helping or guiding me, and that day, it wasn't as common to go to a therapist. And certainly, there wasn't any help on YouTube or anything like that, so information was hard to come by. And I felt like I was always trying to make it up, and I really wanted to help others sort of come about it in a different way. It wasn't so cumbersome, and the path wasn't so crooked.

Shawna Rodrigues [: 00:05:05

Yes. And this beautiful way of being able to connect with people and have them find you when they're trying to define even what a toxic relationship is. Because I feel like that's even the first step is understanding that you're in this cycle and this place. Because usually you start with, like, what is going on? What is happening? What am I in? So, is that usually how people find you is just questioning the relationships they're in and where they're at?

Shannon Petrovich [: 00:05:29

People come to me in all different directions. Some people will show up and say, I have terrible anxiety and depression. And as we start to talk about their lives, I go, I would feel anxious and depressed if I lived with that person too. So that they're not even recognizing that their anxiety and depression is all rooted in this really toxic relationship and that they've been trying for years and years to be perfect and be more this and more that and stop doing this and start doing that. And so, they are so twisted up that they've lost themselves. They're completely focused on the other person's moods and emotions and their every whim and will and need and want, and they've lost track of their own so much to the point that they really are in complete anxiety and depression all the time. And when they can, we can start to sift out, how much of that is anybody would be feeling that in your situation and then starting to step back emotionally, reclaim and regain their own sense of self, and then see that their thoughts, feelings, wants, and needs need to matter in every relationship in their lives. And when they start to claim and reclaim those aspects of themselves, then they can start to feel better, and then they won't let other people step on them the same way anymore. So, it's a process of working from the inside out and recognizing how these relationships have been affecting them and then working to set boundaries and move past them.

Shawna Rodrigues [: 00:07:01

Yes. And that setting boundaries piece is a huge hard piece of that, I'm sure. Is that where you spend a lot of the time doing the work?

Shannon Petrovich [: 00:07:08

Yeah. So, we start really and even in my book, I start with, what is your relationship within yourself? Because a lot of times and this was something that a therapist talked to me about in my early twenties. She said, I want you to write down every time you speak negatively to yourself or about yourself. And so, I started, oh, that's a dumb exercise. But so, I started to write it down. I'm like, oh my gosh. I would never talk to anybody in the world that way ever. Ever. And, yeah, I'm just horrific to myself. And so, recognizing how you treat yourself is number 1. If you have a toxic relationship within yourself, every time you get discouraged or upset or frustrated or sad, do you go, oh, you idiot. Oh, you're such a stupid person. Oh, you know? If you're always putting yourself down, we talk to ourselves, like, 40,000 times a day. And I don't know who sat down and counted that, but, anyway, that sounds about right. You know? It's a constant chatter. Right? And so, if that constant chatter is really horrible and negative, then we can't expect anybody else to treat us differently than we were already treating ourselves, right? If we believe negative things about ourselves, then that's going to resonate perfectly with somebody who believes negative things and tells us negative things about ourselves. So, we’re constantly blaming ourselves. We're constantly unable to separate and look at what's mine and what's yours. So, once you clean up that relationship within yourself and start to know who you are and like who you are, then you can start to build boundaries in your relationships with others because it no longer resonates. It gongs. You know, when someone says something rude, you're like, oh, no. You did not. That is not who I am. That's not about me. That's your stuff and that becomes really crystal clear once you've cleaned up the insides. Then it's easy to set boundaries. I'm like, no. When you're talking to me that way, I'm going to hang up, or I'm going to go home, or I'm going to yeah. I'm done, and that becomes a lot easier.

Shawna Rodrigues [: 00:09:17

That is amazing because I feel like I constantly get stuck when I have people around me that don't have a good sense of self-worth and don't believe in themselves and don't feel they're worthy. And I can tell them so many times, yes, you are. And I think so possibly, you know, wants this, but it has that dissonance with them, and I don't know how to fix that. And it's so interesting because you're resonating with me of, like, they need to fix that. And I need to help empower them to fix that with themselves. And I guess that I've never, like, known that's what I need to be doing, and that's why I need to be encouraging, and that, that is the solution. And it's so funny when you hear these things because you're like, I should have known that. For the audience, I'm sure you forget because I forget I have an LCSW. I have this background, but, no, this is not something that I've recognized and resonated with. And I love this, and I love hearing this from you. And this idea that that therapist told you to write down all the negative things that you say to recognize how many negative things you're saying to yourselves, because I'm sure that the people that I know, that I feel are saying those negative things to themselves and don't even recognize it, that they would be the same. Like, I'm not saying negative things about myself all the time, when in fact, that is their primary narrative, and that's why they aren't able to hear the positive and the strong and good things that I feel about them and say about them because they have that narrative. That is so insightful. This is beautiful. Thank you for sharing that. I think more people need to hear that. I'm glad you're here sharing that with us today.

Shannon Petrovich [: 00:10:47

I think it is a big piece. And, again, it's sort of the things that I've had to sort out myself and then packaging them together to share them with others has been really exciting for me. And so, doing my YouTube channel, that was part of what I wanted to do, I felt like there are millions of people in the world that will never have access to a therapist.

Shawna Rodrigues [: 00:11:08

Yes.

Shannon Petrovich [: 00:11:09

And half of all the stuff that I've learned, can I share in little chunks? And then it became really focused on negative and narcissistic and toxic relationships because that's the thing that baffles people the most I'm finding, and then I wanted to bring it all together into a book to help people really heal. And now I'm doing a coaching program that will help people who can do that kind of more intensive work, and it really does start from your own relationship with yourself. And like you said, you might say, you know, 3 or 4 nice things, but they've said 40,000, and you can't keep up with that, and it isn't your job too. And that's the other thing is that we have to learn, especially as women, we have to learn that it's not our job to take care of other people's emotions. We really do a lot of placating, a lot of people pleasing, and a lot of peacekeeping in our lives, and those three things are how we undermine ourselves in relationships. So, a lot of times, we don't really fully show up in a relationship in the beginning. We're too busy doing those people pleasing and peacekeeping and placating things, and then we feel like we've lost ourselves, but we never showed up to begin with. So, we didn't give that opportunity for that person to actually know us and see us and respect us and honor us. So, in my work, sometimes, I'll say, you know, we'll work on your relationship within yourself and then how you show up in your marriage or relationship. And sometimes, a woman or a man too will show up more fully with their thoughts, feelings, wants, and needs, and the other person's like, cool. I like this you. You know? I like you really showing up, and I like you setting boundaries, and that's great. Other times, it escalates their behavior, and they implode. They explode. They let you know that you're not allowed to show up in this relationship, and then you can say, okay. Cool. Bye. Peace out. You know? I'm done. And so, that setting the boundaries after you sort of rebuild yourself and then set those boundaries that gives you that opportunity to step back and watch. And when you see how they react, whether it's, awesome. I love you, and I love all of you. And I want you to show up in this relationship as much as I am or, you know? No. You're not allowed to show up in this relationship, and then you know, okay. I did everything I could, and I tried. And that's all there is to it.

Shawna Rodrigues [: 00:13:45

Yes. No. And that's why the boundaries are so important. And I think that's one thing that I've learned best skills. I think I've learned in my adult life is boundaries. And I think that I do have those boundaries even with people that don't have that self-esteem and self-worth, but I still want to do more. Because, again, we want to do more, give more, and be more. And so, having this tool of, like, helping them or giving them tools so they can see that part of them is just such a great thing to be able to give them that tool and still being able to have that boundary. It's not my responsibility to help you see how amazing you are. I can still show up, but there's that rejection, too. Just like you said, the things that come through, the things that match what's already there. So, the people that they'll gravitate to are the ones that say the same negative things, and I'm like, why are you pulling that person close when that person is saying good things about you. I'm just like, oh, because that's what resonates. That's what matches. That's what matches the narrative. And for people that are watching loved ones that are in these relationships that you're like, why are you with this person that's so negative, and why are you in this relationship that's so toxic? It's like that, so it's resonating. So, I think that for listeners that when you're in this relationship that you're starting to question what it is, that's amazing you're questioning because you're starting to see your worth and keep building on your worth, and that's amazing. And for people from the outside, that you can understand a little bit better and because, again, we have another episode on the podcast about, you know, judgment and letting go of judgment a little bit and to let go of that judgment, to have that understanding is what we're looking for, and to have the understanding that that's what's resonating with them, and that's what is in alignment, and that's why that enters easier for them because that's the place that they're at. So, as people start to recognize that they're having the depression, anxiety, that they're in a relationship is starting to not resonating as they're starting to recognize their own worth and see success, because I feel like people have success in other areas of their life, and that's when they start to see the dissonance in their relationships. Is that something that you've noticed in your work?

Shannon Petrovich [: 00:15:41

It can be, but it's amazing how people can compartmentalize and be super successful in their lives, in so many ways, have great friendships, and then in their relationships, they keep gravitating back to these really negative experiences, and that's why the internal work has to happen first. And I talk a lot about journaling and, you know, have to journal. But in that first piece of really reclaiming your sense of self or claiming it to begin with, because you may never have had it, journaling it out is really, really helpful because you can list out all the lies that you hear in yourself, in your mind. Those are lies. Like, we weren't born beating up on ourselves. That's not a natural state. It's something you internalize because of something that happened between the ages of 0 and 5 or 6, and those are really impressionable ages. And it isn't necessarily that somebody said, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. It's the experience that you interpreted and took away with you to mean that you weren't worthy or you weren't, or you were in the way or you were a burden or you were unlovable or ugly or whatever. So, those things get internalized really young. And for the most part, people are not aware of them. And when they become aware and can then say, well, what are the truths about me? And I'm going to reach out to Shawna because she keeps saying nice things. So, I'm going to list off those things and write those things down this time because every time she says it, it goes right by. And so, now I'm going to write those things down. And all the people who love me, why do they love me? Well, there must be something there, so I got to find out what those things are. And when I list those things out and list these things out, and every time I hear these things, I say those things instead, that can start the healing process.

Shawna Rodrigues [: 00:17:29

Oh, that's amazing. And so, to start finding those voices that you tend to brush off and to actually give them a place to live so you can revisit them, I love that. Can you share some anecdotal, like, success that you've had with working with clients and how things have changed and shifted for them as they start to peel back those layers?

Shannon Petrovich [: 00:17:47

Yeah. There are so many. I'll try to come up with a few. You know, one that comes to mind is someone who was able to recognize the old messages in her head and recognize where they came from, which was a really toxic home environment when she was growing up, and start to realize who she really is, what she really is about and really coming to some beautiful terms with how much she respects herself and likes herself and thinks she's pretty awesome person and has a lot to offer the world and that when she meets other people, she really is loved and respected. But in her home environment, she wasn't. And so, when she started to really reclaim herself and then show up fully and not put up with any of the disrespect at home. And she thought she would have to come to a situation of divorce, and it turns out she doesn't because her family is now respecting her and loving her for who she is and what she wants to do and supporting what she wants to do. That's heal the whole family in a big way. She's no longer the scapegoat in the doormat.

Shawna Rodrigues [: 00:18:58

That's wonderful. So, talking about the boundaries a little bit, because I think that people are, you know, scared to set boundaries and do that. So, with drawing the boundaries, can you talk about what that looks like and what that feels like and a little more on that?

Shannon Petrovich [: 00:19:13

You know, you kind of have to think of it in gradations. So, there are little boundaries that we set all the time. And, again, we tend to people please and placate. So, maybe somebody says something that you kind of find rude. Do you laugh it off, or do you kind of give them the, you know, you didn't just say that look. So, if you're a parent, you kind of know this because you got the look. You've got the stop now look. So, you don't want to go past this point. So, sometimes it can be as subtle as a look, and I think we've all experienced this where a guy says something or does something that's kind of across the line, and a lot of times we'll laugh it off. But it's so much healthier if we don't laugh it off, but we look at them and give them the look like, no. That crossed the line, I don't think that's funny. So, those little boundaries, I think, are really important because it's how we show up fully in our whole selves with our thoughts, feelings, wants, and needs onboard and not brushing ourselves off, but setting those little boundaries. And then there are bigger ones, like, you know, when someone is being intentionally rude or nasty or disrespectful, especially a closer relationship because we do tend to get the worst from our closest people. Then that looks like, I'm not going to continue talking with you while you're speaking to me this way. We can try again later. I'm going to hang up now, or I'm leaving the house now, or I'm going to my room, and you need to not bother me. When you assertively set those boundaries, then someone knows that that is a line. And, again, then you get to see what happens. So, I often tell people, you know, you're going to set these boundaries. That doesn't mean it fixes it. It means it gives you more information. So, set the boundary and then take notes. Did the person say, I'm sorry. You're right. That was rude. Or did the person go, what are you talking about? I didn't do anything wrong. It's you. You're crazy. You're so sensitive. You're so, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. That's gaslighting. That's bullying. That's pressure. That's manipulation. Right? So, if their games ramp up instead of down, then you know you have a relationship that can't be resolved. And so, then you keep setting those boundaries, you know, like, we've been through this a few times, and you continue to disrespect me. I think I'm getting done with this relationship and then see, do they apologize? Do they ramp up? You're so crazy. You're so sensitive. Stop being so crazy. Everybody else thinks that I'm great and you're crazy. You know, are they ramping up those games? Are they throwing out more hooks and barbs and more games to make you stop being in your truth? Stop telling what you want, need, think, and feel. And if that's the case, then they're telling you, you don't get to show up in this relationship. And then you have to say, okay. I need to respect myself and leave this relationship, whatever that looks like.

Shawna Rodrigues [: 00:22:23

Yes. And I really like that when you gave your examples of boundaries, they were all actions that I'm taking, that I'm doing. I'm not telling you to do something. I'm not telling you need to leave. You need to do this. I'm leaving the conversation. I'm hanging up. I'm going, and I need space. It's all about what I need. And I think that's an important part of boundaries that people need to do this about me and what I need. And I'm telling you what I need, and I'm doing what I need to do for me.

Shannon Petrovich [: 00:22:52

Exactly. And that's what empowers you over time to take better care of yourself and to stand up for yourself and to not take any of that abuse or any of that stuff. Disrespect, you know, it goes from disrespect all the way to abuse. Right? When you shut down the disrespect, do you get more abuse, or does the person back off of that? And that's the question. And if you get abused, then you absolutely have to get out, and there's no question about that. And you sort out everything else later. But if they can respect your boundaries, then you can see whether it's resolvable or not.

Shawna Rodrigues [: 00:23:31

Yes. Because you can't be responsible for the way they're going to react. Yeah. The big part of boundaries is understanding that. That's so helpful. And I love that you're doing this coaching, and you have this new program to heal from toxic relationships and that you're doing this because I think it's an important service for folks. Can you tell us a little more about what people can expect when they join that? Is it, like, a group thing? Is it an individual thing? Tell us more about it.

Shannon Petrovich [: 00:23:55

So, that would be a group coaching and, the 2 coaching calls and video master class I'm putting together, and it's a 3-month gig. So, I'm hoping that that will give people the information from the videos, the support from the group coaching and then a private online group that they can communicate with during the week as well. So, I think it gives somebody an intensive, when you're healing from toxic relationships, first of all, you come out of it and you're in such a fog. And this is the part that people don't recognize. There's brain damage that happens when you're in that kind of relationship over time. The survival and emotional aspects of your brain are on fire all the time with the fight, flight, freeze reactivity. And so, you feel exhausted, but you can't sleep. You feel anxious and depressed, and you don't know what to do with all that. And even when you're out of the relationship, it's just as bad or worse, which is extremely confusing, and it makes people go back. So, it's really important to get that support when you're coming out of a toxic relationship so that you get the healing, the deep brain healing that you need in order to survive and then thrive. Because it's not a time heals all wounds kind of a deal. You actually have to take steps to get better.

Shawna Rodrigues [: 00:25:17

Yeah. To rewire your brain and how you're interpreting data and how you're working with the chemicals to be able to process these things. So, that is amazing. I think that's a wonderful opportunity that you're offering that for folks to have that. To have a safe place to go to process this and to be able to connect with others. Because it is hard to find resources. I know just for therapy in general, it's hard to find resources in the United States and that you're able to offer this in a larger scale because it is online and to be able to do that. So, I'm so glad you're offering that, Shannon.

Shannon Petrovich [: 00:25:51

Thanks, Shawna.

Shawna Rodrigues [: 00:25:52

Yes. So, as we get ready to wrap up our conversation, one thing we do for our audience is to be able to give them examples of ways that we take care of ourselves. Because self-maintenance as we call it, because sometimes self-care feels like pampering or gets interpreted as that. I would love to hear what you do to maintain yourself and take care of yourself on a regular basis, because we love to give examples so that people can see that it's different for everyone and try to see what resonates with them. So, what do you do to take care of yourself on a regular basis?

Shannon Petrovich [: 00:26:20

That's a great question. Bessel van der Kolk talked about healing, and he talked about how it has to have breathing movement and touch involved. And so, when we think about that, I like to go into the forest, and there's a whole Japanese study call about forest bathing. And so, for me, being outdoors and that soft focus and the trees and the sounds and the smells and all 5 senses can get sort of soothed and calmed and relaxed by that. And so, you know, whether it's going out on a hike or a bike ride or just sitting out on the deck and just absorbing, that's something that I do that's really important to me is I know I need to be outdoors as much as possible.

Shawna Rodrigues [: 00:27:08

That's wonderful. I love the outdoors as well. So, I definitely think that that was a helpful thing. During the, pandemic, it was harder because they actually closed. I live in Oregon, and they actually closed hiking trails during the pandemic.

Shannon Petrovich [: 00:27:20

That's horrible.

Shawna Rodrigues [: 00:27:22

Yeah.

Shannon Petrovich [: 00:27:22

They didn't do that here in Arizona. Thank God.

Shawna Rodrigues [: 00:27:23

Yeah. Yeah. So, it's hilarious because I actually, like, started golfing with my partner because they have golf courses open. Isn't that interesting that golf courses are open? We won't go into any of the details about all that, but I think it's because the hiking trails are so close to past people. I don't know. But I actually went golfing because I was at least outdoors. Like, on golf courses. Because I needed to be outdoors, and we needed some place to go, the outdoors with trees and being outside. So, I started going to the golf course because I could be outside. So, I needed my outdoors. I couldn't be inside all the time. So, yeah, that’s important. That's wonderful. And the other thing we do is we give people something actionable that they can do. We call it our grit wit. So, what is something you feel like we can do? I kind of like the idea of writing down the messages even I feel like I do a good job with giving myself positive messages, but there are days where I'm not so good at that. So, I feel like maybe starting to, like, pay attention to what we say to ourselves and actually writing that down would be a great thing for people to walk away with. What are your thoughts?

Shannon Petrovich [: 00:28:27

Yeah. That's what I was going to bring up. Write down the 3 worst things you ever say about yourself. And if you don't know what they are, wait a few minutes, and the next time you have something not go your way, say, what did I just say to myself? Woah. That was awful. I would never speak to anyone that way. So, write down the worst 3, and then write down the 3 things that are absolutely true about you. I'm loving, compassionate, empathic. I'm, you know, a good friend. I'm loyal. I'm dedicated. So that you can kind of have a couple of things that you can superimpose upon those negative things and recognize those things that you said about yourself aren't even true. They never were. They were interpretations that you brought from childhood had nothing to do with you.

Shawna Rodrigues [: 00:29:13

No. That's amazing. That's amazing. So right now, think of those 3 things. And if you can't think of them, wait till the end of the day when you're going to bed tonight. And when you're going to bed tonight, be like, what did happen today that didn't go my way or this week, and what did I say to myself? Because I'm sure you can, you can mind that. You can find that once you're paying attention to it. That is so wonderful. Shannon, where can people find you? Where's, you have a YouTube channel. Is that the best place for people to find you, or where is the best place to find you?

Shannon Petrovich [: 00:29:38

Well, it depends on what you want and what you need. If you want a YouTube videos, then Therapist Talks. I may be rebranding that soon, but I'm sure you'll still be able to find it. So, Therapist Talks on YouTube. I have a landing page for my book that's, nofoggydays.com, and I also have a new landing page for my coaching program, which is healfromtoxicrelationships.com. So, any of those places depending on what it is you want or need.

Shawna Rodrigues [: 00:30:07

Perfect. We will have all of that in the show notes so you can easily go to wherever you're listening and click on any of those links and be able to find Shannon. Thank you so much for being here today and everything you shared. This has been very valuable, and I feel like people can get a lot out of it.

Shannon Petrovich [: 00:30:19

Thanks so much, Shawna. This has been wonderful to be with you.

Shawna Rodrigues [: 00:30:24

Thank you for joining us today. I hope you enjoyed this episode. Be sure to jump on over to Instagram and follow us @The.Grit.Show. And if you aren't already following Authentic Connections Podcast Network, @37by27, you should definitely be doing that as well. Don't forget. You are the only one of you that this world has got, and that means something. I'll be here next Tuesday. I hope you are, too.