Shawna Rodrigues:

Do you know how to own your power in a difficult conversation? It isn't easy, especially in a way that makes a conversation flow better and make things go in the direction you want them to. I cherish the conversation I got to have with Haysha Abrams. It was pivotal for me. It was so helpful. She is a brilliant, skilled woman with a ton of experience and after this podcast was recorded I went out and bought her book. I read it, I soaked it up and started incorporating all of that wisdom into the coaching conversations I have and into the training that I actually do with different businesses and managers. Because it is so important to have this awareness and knowledge about how to communicate better and how to walk into those conversations in an open way that can make things better. This is such an important conversation and it should be no surprise there is one that I've chosen to bring back to you while I'm busy doing my battle dance with breast cancer and on my healing journey.

Shawna Rodrigues:

It is one I could listen to monthly because there is so much value in it and it's things we need to revisit in order to really incorporate them and learn them. So thank you for being here today and I know you're going to get a lot out of this. Welcome to the great show where our focus is growth on purpose. Hi, I'm your host Shawna Rodriguez and I'm honored to be part of this community as we journey together with our grit intact to learn more about how to thrive and how to get the most out of life. It means a lot that you are here today. As you listen, I encourage you to think of who may appreciate the tidbits of knowledge we are sharing and to take a moment to pass this along to them. Everyone appreciates the friend that thinks of them and these conversations are meant to be shared and to spark even more connections. HE Abrams is a professional peacemaker, an internationally acclaimed master attorney, mediator, negotiator, and author known for crashing highly creative settlements and resolutions in very difficult matters.

Shawna Rodrigues:

With 30 plus years in the trenches of resolving human conflict, she has recently distilled her skills into an easy to use toolkit. Her new book, holding the the Secret to Resolving Conflict and Diffusing Tension through stories and examples, she shares her secrets, enabling anyone to learn how to approach tense situations, to prevent explosions, disarm conflicts and reduce drama. Isn't that amazing? It is her mission to help make our world, our businesses and our relationships less acrimonious and more harmonious. Which is amazing and a blessing. I was so, so excited to get connected to her. So thank you so much for being here today, Hesha. We're glad to have you.

Hesha Abrams:

My pleasure. Thanks for having me.

Shawna Rodrigues:

Yes. So where did you get started on this journey to working with conflict and helping people learn how to hold the calm?

Hesha Abrams:

Well, I'm a lawyer, and I like to joke that I'm a lawyer who evolved or rehabilitated one or the other. I was a trial lawyer, and I did complex business cases, and I was young because I've been doing this for a long time. And I won a case that I really should have lost. My client was not in the right, but I kind of outlawed the other side. And then I lost a case. I was doing a pro bona case for this woman that was getting kicked out of her apartment. And I lost that one because I was good old Boyd. And I had a crisis of confidence and said, okay, this is not right.

Hesha Abrams:

This cannot be this way. I was, you know, in my 20s and still idealistic, thinking about how the world should be, and I got smacked in the face with how the world is. And I met this woman who said she was a mediator. And I went, ooh, what's that? And I listened to her and I went, wait a minute, wait a minute. Let me get this straight. You talk to people for a living and solve problems. Where do I sign up? You know, I thought, this is great. But then the trainings that you take don't prepare you for it at all.

Hesha Abrams:

They're very kumbaya, you know, win, win. Problem solving and how we all have to listen to each other and hear what each other has to say. I'm like, okay, in 10 or 15% of the cases, that is correct. What about the other 80 to 85%? When you have to deal with a narcissist or someone self righteous or arrogant or power grabbing or nasty or emotionally immature or fill in the blank. That's when we really need help. Because that's real life. That's real life. And I've spent, you know, 30, over 30 years doing that.

Hesha Abrams:

And people are constantly saying to me, you got to write a book. You got to write a book. How do people do this? All right, fine, I'll do it. I'll do it. And I wanted people to know. It's like we're cavemen and women shoving food in our mouths. I want to say, here's a fork, here's a knife, here's chopsticks. Like, there are so many easier, better ways you can do stuff.

Hesha Abrams:

And I promised you spaghetti sauce. Can I tell Your listeners that now.

Shawna Rodrigues:

Yes, yes, please.

Hesha Abrams:

Thought you would like this. So I have an analogy that everyone remembers. Why did I give the title of the book such a long name? Holding the the Secret to Resolving Conflict and Diffusing Tension. It's longer than you want to try to punch and sell a book, but what I wanted people to know is that all conflict, 100% of it starts with tension. And I don't care if the tension is or if it's either one of them. It all is tension, and we don't take care of it. So it's like you drop spaghetti sauce on the counter, you take a wet sponge, you wipe it up. It's no big deal.

Hesha Abrams:

You leave it overnight. You're scraping it off with a knife, and we've all done that. You leave it three or four months or three or four years, and it's old and moldy and nasty, and that is conflict. So the real question is, why don't we wipe the spaghetti sauce up while it's wet? We don't know how. We're afraid. We're afraid we'll make it worse. So we just pretend. Maybe it'll go away.

Shawna Rodrigues:

It never goes away.

Hesha Abrams:

It never goes away. I wanted to show people this is how you do it. These are some easy, simple ways. And what I did in the book is I wrote 20 techniques, 20 tools in 20 chapters. Short, simple. The book's designed to be read in two hours, each with stories, each with sentence stems, each with anecdotes. So you read it and go, try this one, and you try that one. And then when it works, you go, look at that.

Hesha Abrams:

I can't believe that actually worked. And then you try one. Oh, that didn't work. Is it the way I did it? Or maybe I didn't use the right tool. I was using a screwdriver when I needed a hammer. Okay, what else can I do? And then we'll go over it on our talk today, some special specific things people can do. But it opens your eyes. It's like putting glasses on when you didn't know you needed glasses.

Hesha Abrams:

You don't know how bad it is until you put the glasses on and go, whoa, I can see. This is amazing. I didn't even know. And then when it starts working, people won't say, oh, you know how to hold the calm, or, you're so terrific. No, they're going to say, you just know how to handle people, or, everyone likes you, or you just know how to get things done. That's how it happens.

Shawna Rodrigues:

Yes, I Love that. I love it. And it's so much more than holding the calm, really. It's like this whole concept of being able to handle conflict.

Hesha Abrams:

Yeah. And tension. And, you know, leaders complain all the time. You know, the number one thing they want is to. They know how to handle their teams or management or their jobs, but no one knows how to handle that difficult person. And then you're afraid, you know, am I going to be accused of discrimination or sexism or, you know, am I going to be accused of something? If I don't do this right, then that's an extra barrier. And now the spaghetti sauce is just getting really nasty and problematic because people are people. You know, we play bumper car egos with each other all the time.

Hesha Abrams:

It's part of the natural human condition. Introverts and extroverts, polar opposite, big picture people. Detail people. Polar opposites. A thousand people build a building and one idiot with a stick of dynamite can take it down. So this preventative stuff is so critical. And when you can't prevent it, you have to know how to handle it, because things don't have to be nuclear explosions, but you got to know, here's, you know, here's a pair of glasses. Here's how you can do it here.

Shawna Rodrigues:

They can do it. And how is that? When you're walking into the middle of a situation, so when the spaghetti sauce is already on the counter and you're needing to get it up, is this stuff only useful for when you're first walking into a situation or if you're already there and the tension's already there? And can you still use both?

Hesha Abrams:

It actually works on everything. Now, is it easier to do things earlier? Of course it is. But we know that with weight loss and health and we still eat a donut, we still do things that we shouldn't do. It works on everything. You just have to try different tools. So, for example, would your listeners like, what should I do if I'm at a meeting or a family dinner and my idiot uncle is saying stupid stuff that he knows, pushes buttons or. Or I'm at a meeting and that blow hard, won't stop talking and dominating the airspace. You want one quick way to just shut them up? Take care of it immediately.

Shawna Rodrigues:

Yes.

Hesha Abrams:

You look at them and in a loud voice you say, you know what I admire about you, Joe? He stops talking, doesn't he? Not another sound is going to leave his lips. And let's say you choose your verb. You know what I like about you? You know what I admire about you? You know what I respect about you? You know about you? You know what I understand about you? Whatever verb you can say authentically, pick a verb, any verb, it doesn't really matter. They will stop you and everyone else at the table, you have their full attention. And so before I even give you the answer of what you do next, who's got the power in that interchange?

Shawna Rodrigues:

You. Yes.

Hesha Abrams:

And look at how easily in a tough situation you grabbed power. Everyone is now listening at you. And then you say something true to the person. Your passion, your dedication, your enthusiasm, your commitment to truth, your desire to get this thing solved, your whatever does make a difference. You figure out something you can say that's authentic. And after you say that, you know what I admire about you, Joe? Your enthusiasm. People will laugh and he'll sit back and he won't be able to say a word as there's nothing to say after that. Let's say the person's not such a jackass and you want to not hit him that hard.

Hesha Abrams:

You know what I really admire about you? Your dedication, your commitment. You know what? They're going to look at you. They're going to go, thank you, and then they're going to get quiet and then they're going to sit back. So you've demonstrated leadership, conflict resolution, problem solving, teamwork, and people management in four seconds. It's amazing. And I put in the book tons of sentence stems in every chapter. And what I tell people is write them down on a post it note or put them in your phone so when you need them, you don't have to go, oh, God, what was that? You've got it right there. And they are amazing.

Hesha Abrams:

And then I put stories in the book because I can say to you, chana, you don't know what you're talking about. Let me explain to you how the system works. You're not listening to a doggone thing I'm saying, but instead I can say, can I share a story with you that I think kind of works with what we're dealing with here? 99% of the time you're not going to say no. So now I'm going to tell you a story. And every story in my book is one minute or less. Every single one is battle tested that I have used in real life mediations in real life situations to demonstrate a particular point. And they all work. And so after you do it, people sit back and go, now you talk about it as opposed to argue about whatever the positions were.

Hesha Abrams:

I'm telling you, it's like magic Beans in your pocket.

Shawna Rodrigues:

I love that. Even when I read the title, the holding the Calm, that I thought it was going to be about how I need to just be quiet and listen better and do everything else. Oh, no, this is actually really active ways of diffusing tension. Like, I love this.

Hesha Abrams:

Interestingly, very little listening. I do have a whole chapter on Silence is Golden and how to use it tactically to your advantage. Just listening isn't good enough. It's like I gave you the smell of a good meal, but you didn't get to eat it. And everyone talks about listening, all that stuff. Yes, but that's level one. That's, you know, you need to brush your teeth, Right. It doesn't mean you don't also go to the dentist for a checkup.

Hesha Abrams:

So before you listen, you spur the talking. You create the space to where the talking matters, and then therefore, your listening matters. Otherwise, just listening people regurgitating and vomiting, and you're like, oh, God, I'm sick and tired of listening to you. So you control what happens by the questions you ask, by how you set the stage, by where you direct the conversation. Then you step back and you let the person fill it. Great. Then you do what the next step is. So it's extremely active and powerful, which is why it's not Kumbaya, why it actually works in my cases.

Hesha Abrams:

I mean, I've done everything from whose roommate's cat peed on the rug to wrongful death and breast implant and discrimination cases and construction cases and security cases. And now I basically do a lot of intellectual property patents and trademarks and super complicated kind of cases. And, you know, Google and Amazon and Verizon and IBM and Nvidia and Apple. Those are people who I work with as well as individuals that are suing them. And when I walk into a case, someone will say, I want $100 million. And a defendant will say, Here's 10,000. Go away. How do you settle that? Not with logic, reason, or rationale.

Hesha Abrams:

It's certainly not with. Let me school you and tell you how it is. It has nothing to do with any of it. It's all the human psychology of how people behave, what's important to us, how we engage, how we disengage. And honestly, that's why I wrote this book, because everyone needs to know this. Everyone. And I wanted to make it a simple, easy, digestible thing so that people can actually make their lives better and wipe up the doggone spaghetti sauce.

Shawna Rodrigues:

Yeah, well. And I really feel like as much as we're Talking about spaghetti sauce, and we can all relate to that. But I feel like you're actually giving us the tools to go in and, like, disengage the bombs, like, to go in there and take out the right wire so the bomb's not going to go off. And we can actually, like, not have the bomb go off. So we can do the listening and can do the connecting and can do the figuring things out, because we're taking off, like, the wire that's going to make everything. Just take things up three notches. That's extremely helpful.

Hesha Abrams:

You absolutely got it exactly right. And it's not hard. I mean, first time you try it, you're not going to be as good at it as I am. I've been doing it 30 years. Right, but you're going to be better than you are today. And then next month you're better yet. And next year you're better yet. I'm going to be better next year than I am this year because I keep practicing it and I keep doing a forensic.

Hesha Abrams:

How could I have done that better? How could I have seen that faster? What else could I have done to have moved that? You know, the other thing, too, is people look at people as if you're the same as me. Now, you and I just met on this podcast, right? I don't know anything about you. I don't know your favorite flavor of ice cream. I don't know whether or not you like pizza. I don't know if you like to dance. I really don't know anything. And so in an interchange with somebody, you have to size somebody up real quick, right? Two questions you ask yourself when you're talking to somebody. Are they an introvert or an extrovert? By definition, don't we treat introverts differently than we treat extroverts? Why would I treat an extrovert the same as I would treat an introvert? Let's go.

Hesha Abrams:

Let's talk about it. Let's get this thing going. I want to bond with you. I want to give you space and time to evaluate this and to think about it. And I want to get to know you slowly and understand that's information for people on first dates. That's why first dates don't go well, because people project themselves onto the other person. And chapter one of the book, chapter one is speak into the ears that are hearing you, which means I have to see you. Forget listening to you.

Hesha Abrams:

I have to see you. And if I'm seeing you, and I'm just trying to decide whether you're an introvert or an extrovert, or whether you're a big picture person or a detail person, by definition, my give a darn meter is turned on. And you're going to feel that now. You're going to have rapport with me. You're going to want to talk to me. You're going to feel safe with me. The amygdala, the fear and negativity center of the brain is going to stay dark. It's not going to trigger and get activated.

Hesha Abrams:

Now, why would I speak Chinese to someone who speaks French? That's just stupid. I should look at you and go, oh, you speak French. Okay, let's speak French. Oh, you speak Chinese. Oh, you speak Russian. Oh, okay, let's talk Russian. It's so simple that we forget, you know, we just think, I like ice cream. What is wrong with you that you don't like ice cream? I've offered you ice cream four times and you keep turning it down.

Hesha Abrams:

Everyone likes ice cream. Is there something wrong with you without ever figuring out you're lactose intolerant and you'd be just tooting all over the place, you can't have ice cream. And I never bothered to find that out. And so we talk about listening. It just sounds like, so boring. Big, right?

Shawna Rodrigues:

Yes.

Hesha Abrams:

It's really diagnosing, which means I have to see you, pay attention to you turn on my give a darn meter. And I can do that in 30 seconds. It's not hard. We just don't think of it. We just tend to go, here's my stuff, I'm gonna dump it on you and I'm gonna see how you react. Well, you know, for 10 or 15% of the people that will work because they're like you, but you'll have an 85% failure rate. I don't like an 85% failure rate.

Shawna Rodrigues:

No. Or people are leading, I feel like, with judgment especially, it seems in current times that we lead with judgments that are curiosity. So I'm not here to judge if you're an introvert or an extrovert or here to be curious if you like ice cream or not. I'm here to judge if you like ice cream or not. Or I'm here to judge if you're an introvert, an extrovert, or whatever else. Instead of, like, being curious, oh, what language is that? Or, oh, what, what way is that? Or how are they presenting themselves and how does that connect? So I feel like that is that give a darn meter I think is an important Piece of. Having that curiosity and connecting like that is important.

Hesha Abrams:

That is beautifully said. That's beautifully said.

Shawna Rodrigues:

I love that. That is definitely the best place to start. So that's probably giving you a Teflon surface to put that spaghetti sauce on, huh?

Hesha Abrams:

And, you know, this is the other benefit I tell people, too, because let's say you're calm, you're peaceful, and then you can have that conversation. That's easy. But what if you're. Let's do the advanced course. But if you're hot, what if you're cranky? What if you're hangry? What if you're disappointed? What if you didn't take your meds that day? What if, what if, what if? Right? This is. Again, I keep saying this is real life, real human beings with real stuff. When you take a step back to diagnose and interact with somebody, what you do is you create a moat around your feelings and how you choose to act or what you choose to say. For so many of us, you feel it and it's in your chest and it grips you.

Hesha Abrams:

Oh, and you go, right, well, I'd like to have a little leash or a wick or a moat so that I can breathe a minute and decide how I choose to handle this. What do I choose to say? And if something happens? That's one of the reasons I called it holding the calm, because it's a mantra I use. I mean, I'm human. I've got an amygdala. I can get ticked off, and I can get hot. And I will say to myself, I'm holding the calm. I'm holding the calm. I'm holding the calm.

Hesha Abrams:

That took two seconds. And it creates a moat around what I'm feeling and reminds my amygdala, my. The fear negativity part of my brain that triggers fight, flight, or freeze to say, hold on, girlfriend. How do you choose to handle this? What do you want to do? So I don't just blabber off at the mouth or act out at the mouth or punch somebody or stalk away angrily or fire off that email that you shouldn't do. It's a moat. And if you say holding the calm to yourself and the reason why it works better than take a deep breath, by the way, take a deep breath. Doesn't work. Everyone says it.

Hesha Abrams:

Or the worst thing you can do is say, calm down. Calm down to yourself or someone else. It is like oil on a fire. Never in the history of calming down has anyone ever calmed down by being told to calm down. I Mean, police officers are actually trained with that. It is the worst thing you can do. And so from a neuroscience point of view, why? Well, because your amygdala is activated. And when your amygdala is activated, it feels powerless.

Hesha Abrams:

What happens when you're powerless? Well, I have more power than you. I'm going to tell you what to do. You need to calm down. You need to take a deep breath. Your amygdala goes, get away from me, because if I could, I would. So now you're telling me you have more power than me, that you know more than me. All you do is activate the amygdala, make it worse. So instead of saying to somebody, take a deep breath or calm down, which is really what everybody says.

Hesha Abrams:

And it's. You can just see it doesn't work. It's the worst thing you can do. The better thing to do is say, can I hold the calm with you? Huh? What? Can I hold the calm with you? This seems really upsetting to you. This seems like a really angry situation there. Seems like there's a lot of frustration here. Can I hold the calm with you? Can I help you? Do you see what that does to the amygdala? Who's got the power in that interchange? You and normal that happens. The other person's upset, you run away, you hide, you freeze, you punch back.

Hesha Abrams:

Who's got the power? The angry person. When you do this holding the calm stuff, you take back the power. I'm telling you, dear listeners, it is the most empowering thing you can do for you. Forget anybody else. For you. Now you can do stuff. I'm telling you, it's like magic beans in your pocket. It really is.

Shawna Rodrigues:

Yes, I love that. I love the magic beans. And I do know somebody who will say that, like, you just need to calm down. Just calm down. And it does. It flares me up. And I haven't ever stop to realize why that flares me up so much. And that's so helpful to have you walk through why and to have an alternate way to handle it.

Hesha Abrams:

And you can tell that person because they don't know. And you could say, can I share a story with you? That is always the first way to do it, because that opens up someone's ears. I just learned this thing about the amygdala and a little bit about neuroscience and why when somebody. Not when you. When somebody says, calm down. Why? It doesn't work and it makes it worse. Now there's a conversation with the other person and they don't feel Blamed because you didn't say, when you do this, I feel that way. So I have a whole chapter in the book on blame, defend, justify, death dance and what happens when blame happens.

Hesha Abrams:

And then the other person then would say, oh, my God, you know, I don't understand. Da, da, da. And then you can say, you know what would help me more? Because I know you want to help me. Their ears are opened. See that? Validation. If you see I'm angry or upset or I'm stressed out, just say, and I hold the calm with you and I help you. They'll look at you like, okay, you know, and then it will happen and not happen, and happen and not happen. And then you got teachable moments along the way until it becomes a habit and a pattern.

Hesha Abrams:

That when I'm upset, it would be very helpful to me, and I will be very appreciative of you if you help me that way. And do you think it'd be helpful to you if I did it to you that way? Now it's this giant, massive teachable moment with partners, with teenagers, with kids, with co workers, with employees. I'm telling you, it works with everybody because we all have an amygdala, we all have an ego, and we all have an amygdala.

Shawna Rodrigues:

Yes. And this approach of, can I share a story and win somebody? And that whole approach is brilliant. I absolutely love it. I think that that's something that can really help every single person listening here in so many areas. They're probably trying to catalog all the different spaces. Where can I use this? Who can I use this with? Because I feel like it is a very valuable way to kind of reframe and be able to share things in a very neutral way. Because I think we get stuck in how we can do that. We avoid conflict instead of trying to find a way of how we can address the tension and.

Shawna Rodrigues:

And figure out, how do I even explain why this doesn't sit right with me?

Hesha Abrams:

Wipe up that spaghetti sauce when it's wet, and if you're feeling tense, wait a minute. Hold the calm. Allow yourself to get back into a sense of power. And that's the beauty of these sentence stems is it's magic wands. It's tools. It's glasses, it's chopsticks. It's all the stuff I've been talking about. It's tools.

Hesha Abrams:

Because I'm nervous about, how do I handle you? You're scary to me. Or the consequences of what could happen are scary to me, or the relationship is valuable to me, or you come with some of these tools now. You open and invite a conversation as opposed to scolding or running away.

Shawna Rodrigues:

Yeah. Especially when we have people that are close to us and dear to us. It's even harder sometimes to communicate those things because it is so much at stake. And indeed, once we start getting moldy spaghetti sauce on the counter, like we do damage to the counters into those relationships because we aren't addressing those pieces.

Hesha Abrams:

Indeed. And it always comes back to bite. Therapist couches. We have probably more therapists in this country than we have, you know, medical doctors, mentally. We don't. We don't live in communities and tribes anymore where there was that familiarity or there was that wise old woman or that wise old man that we could go to who could kind of resolve stuff or keep the heat down or help us out. Our society is just very splintered now. So we, we, those who are preaching to the audience, the choir here, because anyone who's smart enough to listen to your podcast is already, you know, feeling this.

Hesha Abrams:

They just want more tools. And how do they do it? We can take back our society. We really can. Rather than rail against social media and all the negative kind of junk, just take back control. You know, we have politicians that aren't listening. We have things happening that are destroying our lives. Take back control. That's all.

Hesha Abrams:

And if enough of us do it, this is what's going to happen. This is why I wrote the book. This is why I'm doing podcasts. This is why I'm out there beating this drum that you, our dear listeners, are more powerful than you can possibly, possibly believe. And the bullies are afraid of you. Bullies pick on people they think they can get. Now, bullies are damaged, too, because we can say, oh, bullies are terrible, they're damaged goods, or they wouldn't act like that. And I still have to protect myself and have a fence.

Hesha Abrams:

But bullies don't like light and they don't like a crowd that is not supporting them. They will run away. Because all bullies, by definition, are cowards. And the only way they get anywhere is if they get a crowd around them. So when you're powerful and you take control early, the crowd doesn't form. That's what's so beautiful about it.

Shawna Rodrigues:

Yeah, I feel like the workplace. We just had an episode on the great show around toxic relationships, and it was interesting, the feedback that I got, that folks weren't just identifying their intimate relationships, they were identifying their workplace. They were identifying systems they have to work within and other places that were having the effect on them, that they were identifying, the gaslighting, the lack of respect, the different things they were identifying that podcast are in toxic relationships. They were seen in other places. So to have, like, some of these tools to be able to diffuse attention and the challenges in those places as well, I think it's a valuable tool.

Hesha Abrams:

You know, when people treat you with disrespect or gaslight you, they do it because they can. If you don't allow it or you raise the consequences of it, it may still happen, but dramatically reduced because, again, the people who do that are bullies. And so they pick targets where you're afraid to speak or you don't know how to say something. And so I can just get away with it. And the more you do this kind of stuff, you'll just turn them. You've got a bully, and you say to somebody who'd been really tried to gaslight you or was disrespectful to you, you immediately say, you know what I admire about you? Everyone freezes. Anyone with an earshot freezes, and they want to hear what you're going to say. And then you're very careful about the verb you use.

Hesha Abrams:

Your work ethic or your commitment to really trying to be so polite and civil, or your enthusiasm even when you don't have the data to support it. Right. You can decide to do it light, medium, or hard. It's your choice. Whatever your bravery is, whatever your safety is, whatever your skill level is, you choose what you choose to choose. And I always say, start light and easy first. Get comfortable with doing it. But what happens is everyone else looks at you and says, God, I didn't have the courage to do that.

Hesha Abrams:

You're awesome. But that person isn't picking on you again, because they were embarrassed. They don't want to hear that, so it's now done. But you did it with strength and not nasty and not aggressive and not in a way that it can blow back on you. And the person often will walk away. Kind of, what. What.

Shawna Rodrigues:

What just happened? How do I respond to that? Yes.

Hesha Abrams:

Who's got the power? When you have power, people don't gaslight you or disrespect you, so let's do it instead of sitting back and going, oh, it's a toxic relationship, and it's bad, and I don't like it. Take your power, everybody put on your reading glasses. Learn how to do this holding the calm stuff. I mean, part of the reason I know all this stuff is I had a very Challenging upbringing, very difficult. And I've had a lot of therapy, so I've learned a lot throughout all that way. But every once in a while someone will do something to me. And one of my best things that I can do is. Excuse me, just that with a face and people backpedal, you know, you want to try that again? Let's do a do over.

Hesha Abrams:

Because I don't think you meant that the way it sounded. That's a good one, isn't it? Right. But you have to feel whatever your power level is and your comfort level. So that's why I've given everyone sort of low, medium and high whatever choices you want to make given it. If I feel pretty safe and comfortable, I will take power and say, let's do a do over on that. I'm not sure you meant that the way that sounded. And then they look at you like, huh. If they were clueless or sheepish when I really was being kind of nasty.

Hesha Abrams:

And then you have a conversation about it. But again, I want to do the advanced course. Let's say I'm not safe and I don't feel comfortable doing it, then I could do something like. Come again? What was that? I don't think I heard you. They get it. Then they don't come knocking on your door again because they can't get away with the crap that they were doing. This is like antibiotics before penicillin was invented.

Shawna Rodrigues:

Exactly. To start diffusing the situations and make a difference. Yeah. And I think that that tension and being able to realize you do have tools instead of having to just walk away or just let it sit there and just feel that. Because I feel like our bodies take that on when we're not addressing it. Like it has other effects to us and our well being if we aren't interest.

Hesha Abrams:

Totally correct. And the number one killer is stress. Why should I have stress? Because of nonsense that you're doing. That's a terrible deal. That's a terrible deal. There's a. Alcoholics Anonymous has a phrase that a friend told me about that I just think is fabulous. They say the definition of resentment is poison that you drink but expect somebody else to die.

Hesha Abrams:

I'm going to say that again because it's so powerful. Because we all have resentment and grudges. We're human beings, Every one of us does. It's natural to have that. But you say to yourself, resentment or holding a grudge. Same thing is poison that I drink but expect somebody else to die.

Shawna Rodrigues:

Yep. Who does it really damage? What is really happening when that's going on.

Hesha Abrams:

Rock and roll. I tell you. You know, nobody. Nobody gets out of this life alive, and nobody gets out of this life without scars. Now, God bless. Some have worse than others. We know that. But nobody gets out of this life unscathed.

Hesha Abrams:

Nobody. So the lessons that you learn along the way, how you protect yourself, how you evolve and allow your light to shine more and more and more. You know, there's a. An Indian guru named Sanchi who said this beautiful thing that each one of us is a beautiful soul. We're like a light bulb in a lamp. And there's canvas covers layers of them over that lamp. So for most people, the light's real dim. Our job in this lifetime is to just keep taking off layers of canvas to allow our light to shine more and more and more.

Shawna Rodrigues:

That is beautiful. I love that.

Hesha Abrams:

I like that one, too.

Shawna Rodrigues:

Yes. And be able to diffuse tension and be able to connect more with who we are. I think increases the brightness, that light, too. So I feel like that's one of the tools. Do you have anything else? Any other examples you want to share with us before we start to wrap up?

Hesha Abrams:

Well, let's see. I want to give people a quick tip that if you're in a situation where you're in a team building kind of thing or a relationship or a family and there's some conflict, I know a lot of marriage counselors use the word. You know, you should never use the word. You. You should use I statements occasionally. That's a decent tool. Occasionally. But more often than not, it is not.

Hesha Abrams:

Because whatever's happening in conflict, the other person is already thinking you're selfish or a narcissist. And then you use I statements. I don't think it does so well. I prefer to use we statements. So if you and I are in conflict together and we're fighting over whatever, and I start saying, how are we going to handle this? The brain, the amygdala and the brain is we are wired to do friends or FOE, Hatfield and McCoys. I mean, we are wired for that.

Shawna Rodrigues:

Yes.

Hesha Abrams:

You calm that down. It's not you and me. It's not me against you. This is we. I use we when I'm doing a very complicated negotiation or a very complicated case where people will never see each other again. But I can create a we for purposes of that day or that moment, because what it does is it acknowledges, this is not just my problem. This is we. Now, occasionally you may have someone that says what we.

Hesha Abrams:

There's no problem for Me, it's all you. You made all the mistakes. Okay, well, you're dealing with somebody really emotionally immature with a low skill set. So then I would say, okay, I can see that you're feeling really frustrated with this and really distanced from it, but I know you care about me, right? What are they going to say no? They're going to have to say yes. Well, then I think it's a problem and I think we need your help in solving it. Do you see how that took me 10 seconds to turn around an arrogant, self righteous, obnoxious statement and trapped him by his own words? That's why I do these sentence stems. If you just say, you know, I know you care about me now, you know, one in 100 people are going to go, no, I don't care about you at all. Okay, different technique because now I really know what I'm dealing with.

Hesha Abrams:

Or I can say, let's say you're having a hot argument with a kid or you know, a friend or a family member who goes, I hate you. They don't hate you. Hate is not the opposite of love. Apathy is the opposite of love. If they hate you, there's some love there because otherwise they wouldn't care enough to hate you. So in that moment, you can say me or you can go, you don't hate me, you love me. You know you do. And then you start to laugh and you start to joke around and, well, I don't like you very much right now.

Hesha Abrams:

Okay, I understand that we got to work through this problem. I know you love me and I know I love you. You know, that works great with teenagers. Okay, yeah. So this stuff is, I'm telling you, I'm telling you, everybody. Magic beans.

Shawna Rodrigues:

Yes. Well, I was even thinking about, so my background way back when with my licensed clinical social workers working with young children. And I feel like that we statement with problem solving with kids is critical as well. That we're on the same team and we are going to figure this out and we are doing this. It's not me telling you, it's not me deciding for you. It's not I. It's us and we and looking at things in that whole perspective. And I feel like with teenagers, like the whole gamut, the we to intimate partner relationship, the we that it covers all those things as well as being at a team at work, that it's we.

Shawna Rodrigues:

I love that. I love that way of looking at things. I feel like it really does frame things that we're problem solving together and we're all part of this and we're on the same page.

Hesha Abrams:

And the ancillary benefit of is that it feels like your give a darn meter is turned on. Now you can turn it on level one or you can turn it on level 10. The more you turn it on, the better everything is. Every negotiation, every relationship, every encounter, the better you can turn it on higher and higher and higher. It's amazing. But I'm also honest because sometimes you can't. Sometimes I really don't like you or I don't like your values or I don't like what you did or I don't like what you stand for or I can't believe you did that to me. Okay, you're human.

Hesha Abrams:

This is not Kumbaya stuff. This is real live stuff. So how do you use it to make it be the best you can be given the circumstances and the reality? I want chocolate cake to not be fattening, but I can eat some broccoli first and do it as a carbon offset and then maybe have half a piece of cake and then all right, I can work. So I have choices. When we have choices, we don't feel powerless. And when most people have conflict, they get pushed in a corner and they don't get out. So choices, give them choices. Why not?

Shawna Rodrigues:

Yes. And I love that's an excellent transition as we're like starting to wrap up our conversation too that having your give a darn meter on, you need to take care of yourself so that you can turn on that give a darn meter. And every episode we talk about our self maintenance minute and what we do to take care of ourselves so that we can do that. I think even having the power to say to your child, no, you do love me, you love me. It's because I've taken care of myself and I believe in myself and believe in our love enough for both of us right now. So I feel like that it helps to magnify the importance of having our own self worth and having that ability. So what do you do to take care of yourself and to maintain your well being on a regular basis?

Hesha Abrams:

Well, I'll tell you my healthy thing and then my frivolous thing because I do both.

Shawna Rodrigues:

I love it.

Hesha Abrams:

So I do yoga and I find it just critical for both body maintenance and mental maintenance. I just love doing a good hot, sweaty, hard yoga class. And my frivolous indulgence is I'm a major Star Trek fan. So I read Star Trek novels like candy because they're little paperbacks and I Can sit for two hours and devour one and I'm on the planet, you know, Risa or wherever it is. I am going through some amazing science fiction thing and I can wash my mind and I find I'm rejuvenated afterwards.

Shawna Rodrigues:

That's perfect because we even had our episode on Burnout and we talked about like being able to escape like that and do that is really a buffer for burnout and a perfect example of self care. So I appreciate you sharing and for our grit. What do we want our listeners to like immediately walk away and employ with doing? After listening to us in this conversation today, I feel like there's a lot to gain from your book. So they should definitely look into that. But what's something that we want them to immediately be able to walk away and do?

Hesha Abrams:

Use the words holding the calm as a mantra for yourself and then you can choose a tool. I've given a bunch of tools. There's a bunch in the book. I have a ton on that. I just given everything away for free because I want people to have this if they click with me on LinkedIn. I'm doing posts pretty much every day or every other day on, you know, little tidbits. I do one minute little videos on how to handle things. I've got a holding the Calm web page that they can sign up for that.

Hesha Abrams:

I don't sell the list or anything and I just kind of send stuff out this Facebook page. So I want people to be able to connect. I'm not selling anything. I'm not teaching trainings. I'm not doing anything other than just trying to get this information out to people that life can be easier. So that's what I would tell people.

Shawna Rodrigues:

Yes. So to take the holding the calm as your mantra to help you get that moat around your emotions when you're having this difficult moments. And then to maybe take your sticky note and take something that was mentioned that resonated with you from this episode and write it on the sticky note to try that the next time you're in that situation. To be able to say that phrase or that piece to kind of redirect or diffuse that tension. To be able to feel like you have tools and start to build your toolbox. To be able to. To use that when you're in that place. To be able to hold the calm.

Hesha Abrams:

I love it.

Shawna Rodrigues:

Fabulous. Yes. And so go ahead. So you mentioned LinkedIn and we'll have all this in the show notes LinkedIn. And your website is holdingthecom.com is that right?

Hesha Abrams:

Correct. And I think it's also that way for Facebook. And then you can buy the book anywhere, but Amazon is easiest usually. And then if you are kind enough to get it, if you'd leave me a nice review, because that helps that search engine, you know, do their thing. You know, I just keep posting more and more things that I hope will resonate with people. And I get amazing responses from folks that they healed a relationship. They didn't have to quit a job with a boss. You know, they negotiated something.

Hesha Abrams:

It's just this stuff should be taught in school.

Shawna Rodrigues:

Yes, yes, it should be. Yes. You need this every single day. You don't need what you learned in chemistry every single day.

Hesha Abrams:

No, exactly. And one of the things I did is I put a discussion guide in the back of the book that, you know, people wanted me to do a second workbook and charge for a book. I said, no, no, I'm giving it away for free. I want it in the back of the book and it tracks the book. Because trainings are very expensive nowadays and corporations are organizations. Churches, synagogues, mosques, or community centers are keeping everything real tight, money wise. So a bunch of people can get the book, read a few chapters together and discuss it, and then follow along with the training guide in the back of the book. It is amazing training because what happens is I read it and I think I know something.

Hesha Abrams:

And then, Shauna, you say it means this. I say, are you kidding me? How could you possibly see that? Now we have a discussion. Now I learn more. I understand something more about you. We have more team building that just happened in our group. And if you rotate leadership, who facilitates this little baby book club thing, it's amazing that you're getting leadership training and it will qualify for most continuing education. You know, lawyers are doing it, social workers are doing it, psychologists are doing it, and then you get training credits for it. So anyway, that was.

Hesha Abrams:

That was my goal and trying to make it easier for people to be able to do that.

Shawna Rodrigues:

That's incredible. Thank you so much. This has been so valuable. I feel like everyone's getting a lot out of it and I know I've gotten a lot out of it. So thank you so much for being a part of the conversation. Have a great day. Thank you for joining us today. I hope you enjoyed this episode.

Shawna Rodrigues:

Be sure to jump on over to Instagram and follow us he grit show. And if you aren't already following Authentic Connections podcast network at 37 by 27, you should definitely be doing that as well. Don't forget, you are the only one of you that this world has got. And that means something. I'll be here next Tuesday. I hope you are too.