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Shawna Rodrigues [: 00:00:00

Do you ever feel like there's a whole cast of characters living inside your head? One that says, come on, let's hit the gym. Another that is begging you to just stay on the couch, and yet another that is just criticizing any options that you're offering? What if instead of fighting these conflicting voices, we learned how to listen to and harmonize them? Welcome to our summer of Encores, where I'm bringing back fan favorites that that are worth revisiting, which also allows me the space I need to focus on my journey with breast cancer. Today's episode is a treasure from January 2023. We're going back nearly 100 episodes ago. This conversation is with a psychotherapist whom I respect deeply and he guides us through internal family systems. IFS. It's a transformative approach to understanding our inner world. I have a hard time with the way it's labeled as internal family systems, but we talk about that.

Shawna Rodrigues [: 00:00:59

We start the conversation with a striking analogy of an orchestra where your inner self acts as a conductor while countless parts, from your anxious flutes to your perfectionist violins, play their own roles. We even touched on that inner drummer that sometimes try to drown everyone and everything else out. Can that harsh inner critic ever be embraced? We explore how ifs moves beyond fixing what feels broken and instead it's more about embracing more about curiosity over criticism and honoring every part of you. Curious what this means? We even talk about unlocking the eight C's of self leadership. You get to learn all about it. This encore presentation is packed with insights, practical advice and tools you can try today. Right now, even if you heard this episode when it came out, these are all things you're going to want to hear again. It'll leave you eager to hear more about how to find the harmony in your own inner orchestra.

Shawna Rodrigues [: 00:01:59

I'm so glad you're here for this. Welcome to the Grit show where our focus is growth on purpose. I'm your host, Shauna Rodrigues, and I'm honored to be part of this community as we journey together with our grit intact to learn more about how to thrive and how to get the most out of life. It means a lot that you are here today. As you listen, I encourage you to think of who may appreciate the tidbits of knowledge we are sharing and to take a moment to pass this along to them. Everyone appreciates a friend that thinks of them and these conversations are meant to be shared and to spark even more connections. Today you get to meet Will Halpin. He is a licensed independent clinical social worker with over 22 years of experience who has dedicated his career to transformative therapeutic approaches, particularly internal family systems therapy.

Shawna Rodrigues [: 00:03:00

Will brings a unique perspective from his extensive work with trauma survivors, the LGBTQIA community, and those navigating substance abuse challenges. His background includes pivotal work at Femway Health in Boston and developing statewide training programs for healthcare professionals now practicing independently in Sturbridge, Massachusetts. Will not only uses ifs in his clinical work, but also works with emerging therapists and trains internationally on this powerful modality. We're excited to explore the world of internal family systems with Will today, and there is extensive details of his impressive background in our show. Notes. Welcome, Will. I'm so glad to be here with you today.

Will Halpin [: 00:03:39

It's wonderful to be here with you.

Shawna Rodrigues [: 00:03:40

I've been very intrigued by internal family systems. The little pieces I hear about it.

Will Halpin [: 00:03:46

Yeah.

Shawna Rodrigues [: 00:03:46

The first thing that intrigues me is the name internal family systems, because it doesn't seem to fit once I learn about it, how it's connected. So in your opinion, what is internal family systems like? How would you boil it down to make sense as someone who's hearing about it for the first time?

Will Halpin [: 00:04:02

So when you think about internal family systems, you know, you have intern, you have family, and you have systems, right? So we all have a variety of things going on inside of us at all times, right? Because we're humans, we're complex. So it could be a Saturday, and there's a part of you that's like, oh, I really want to go to the gym. I should go. Be good for me. I need to do this. That or the other, the part that's like, oh, it's been a long week, I just want to lay on the couch. And there are parts like, come on, just get going, don't waste time. In, like, just a matter of a few seconds, you had three different experiences inside.

Will Halpin [: 00:04:36

So when we think about ifs, so the internal is these internal voices. And I say voices, I'm not talking multiple personalities or things like schizophrenia, but we have internal dialogues all the time. And so the I is internal, then F is the word for family. So family, as you imagine, are a variety of people kind of working together in a unit. Sometimes well, sometimes not so well. So in that little example I gave you, we had three different experiences in conflict with one another. So F, as in family, as in these competing, different voices, different parts, as we say in the model, kind of navigating day to day life. And then systems as they work as a system, sometimes harmoniously, sometimes not so harmoniously.

Will Halpin [: 00:05:22

And so when a Person comes in for therapy, clearly there's oftentimes a disharmonious experience inside that they want to address.

Shawna Rodrigues [: 00:05:30

So I think that's the biggest piece. So it was discovered by somebody who did family systems, like family therapy. And so then you start thinking. Thinking of family therapy. It gets confused because you're like, what? Yeah, so it really is more like looking at the way you communicate with the different parts of yourself and seeing those different parts as more of a family system is more of a group to look together. And that's why it's family system.

Will Halpin [: 00:05:52

Right? When I often sit down with folks for the first time, I. I talk about ifs as a concept where think about an orchestra. You have the conductor, and you have all the members of the orchestra, right? You have the violins, you have the flutes, you have percussion, you have French horns, you have trumpets, you have oboes, you have trombones, the whole bit. And so the goal of going to orchestra is that they work together to create harmony and melody. So you have a conductor who's sort of guiding that. And so what we want to think about is we want our systems to work like an orchestra, right? Where everyone's attuning to the conductor, following the conductor, and at certain points, certain folks are highlighted. Like, perhaps there's a point where the violins and violas are prominent, and so the conductor guides them up and then kind of quiets or kind of softens the French horns or the. The woodwinds or what have you.

Will Halpin [: 00:06:47

And so, again, like, we're looking at sort of creating a harmonious melody, harmony inside. So again, that's the concept of parts working together well, attuning, listening to each other, like a healthy family system. So.

Shawna Rodrigues [: 00:07:01

So sometimes I might need to go to therapy because the fact the drummer just won't stop beating the drum when maybe I just want to listen to flutes. A little mess.

Will Halpin [: 00:07:10

Exactly, right? Like, people are like, I have anx. Anxiety. Anxiety riddles me. So let's get to know your anxiety, right? Your anxiety. How does your anxiety show up? Like, oh, you know, I'm out with friends, or we're going out to meet new people, and I have this experience inside. Well, like, they're gonna hate me. They're gonna think I'm this. They're gonna.

Will Halpin [: 00:07:27

That. The anxiety shows up as this voice that is criticizing them and giving them a hard time. They're like, okay, so that is a part. That is one of your members of your internal family system who may be yelling really loudly or banging the drums, as you say, really, really loud. When perhaps what you want is more soft winds and that kind of thing. Right. So, yeah. So we're working in therapy to address parts or members of this family system that are operating what we say in an extreme role, like the drum that's beating way too loud and overpowering the woodwinds or overpowering the strings.

Shawna Rodrigues [: 00:08:05

So I don't think a lot of my listeners realize that I do have a background in clinical social work issue, but there are so many different treatments and modalities, and my specialty was with young children. So I come to this very open speak because I never studied it. And I definitely just heard things from my friends who work in the field. And it's always been intriguing to me.

Will Halpin [: 00:08:25

Yeah.

Shawna Rodrigues [: 00:08:26

And one of the things that has intrigued me about it is this concept about really that you hold the different parts of you and you honor them. And I think that's one thing they feel like I've heard about with ifs, which are internal family systems, people call it ifs. So with ifs, it's this beautiful thing that I love about it that a lot of times with different therapy modalities, you're trying to fix and change and banish and get rid of. And this whole concept of the ifs, it's more like embracing to me and honoring was really exciting. Can you talk more about that?

Will Halpin [: 00:08:57

Yeah. So one of my trainers told me this. Well, told our group this when I was learning a few years back about the IFS is not a deficit model, it's a constraint model. What I mean by that is we often think of therapy. I'm going to therapy because I'm missing something, something's broken, quote, unquote, something's not working right. This sense of, I'm in a deficit, I'm in a broken place, the therapist is going to, quote, unquote, fix me. And what I love about the use of the idea of a constraint model is that constraint is we remove the constraints that inhibit your natural ability to work harmoniously with yourself. So it's this idea.

Will Halpin [: 00:09:36

I mean, you're a social by, you know, strengths based is such a huge element. Resiliency theory that was such a big part of our training and certainly what I loved about our field. And it really embraces that because we're talking about you have these capacities within you, you have the things within you already, and we remove the constraints for optimal functioning.

Shawna Rodrigues [: 00:09:58

That is so wonderful. Yeah. So this idea of the constraint, I haven't heard that term. That's wonderful. So it really is about removing the constraints and Making somebody optimal functioning, optimal life. And that's kind of what this podcast is about, is about optimal functioning and helping people do that.

Will Halpin [: 00:10:11

Right, right, right. And it is sort of bringing this idea that we want to get curious about our experience. So often, like you said, we just banish stuff like, oh, I don't want to do that anymore. I don't want to. I don't want to be anxious anymore. I will get rid of it. Certainly I can appreciate the concept. I don't want to be anxious anymore.

Will Halpin [: 00:10:27

But instead of judging or banishing our experience, we turn towards it and we wonder what's going on. So I'm curious, like, if we go back to that anxiety example that I gave, where someone has social anxiety, they're going to meet new people, and there's this voice that says, oh, they're not going to like me. They're going to think this, this or this. Like, oh, I shouldn't think that. Right? Like, stop that. Stop that thought. Right? There's certainly modalities that talk about things like that, but in this one, which I love, is you go, huh, I wonder what that's about. What's going on.

Will Halpin [: 00:10:57

That there's this part of me that is talking to me in this way. One of my supervisors says, I want you to fall in love with your parts. Which I know sounds so kind of woo and kind of strange, but it is this idea of, let me understand, let me get to know what's going on. And there may be more to the story, I think, about when. If you're in a work situation and someone's getting really frustrated with you, and they're like. And you just keep ignoring them, right? What do you think's gonna happen? They may escalate. Or if you have a child, right? And they're, like, getting upset. The more you probably ignore them, the more they escalate.

Will Halpin [: 00:11:31

And it's usually, hey, hey, hey, whoa, whoa. Let's figure this out. Like, what's going on? Let's sit down, let's take a breath. Like, what's going on here? Let's. What's behind this? And if we do that with these parts in our little family system, we learn a bigger story. And as you might imagine, I mean, not always, but when you're working with a kid or maybe with a colleague at work, when you sit down, we'll say, okay, let's sort this out. Like, what's going on behind this frustration? Right? That person, like, okay, so they may. They stop.

Will Halpin [: 00:12:01

And they're not as, like, the drum's not beating as loud. You ask questions, you get curious. As I say, get curious, not furious. And you may learn a little bit more about what's going on. That person softens as they feel seen and understood and things can start to shift.

Shawna Rodrigues [: 00:12:18

That's really incredible.

Will Halpin [: 00:12:19

Yeah.

Shawna Rodrigues [: 00:12:20

In different conversations, I've come to understand, isn't there some way of looking at these different parts of you? Yes, I've heard the term. Can you talk more about these terms, different parks?

Will Halpin [: 00:12:29

A little bit, yeah. So we have kind of general categories, and again, nothing's always perfectly clean. But we have protectors. And in the protector category, there are two kinds of protectors. So we have what are called managers and firefighters. So managers, you think about a manager, what does a manager do? Like, keep things functioning, right? And that is what a manager does. Our manager parts are getting us through the day. There are organizing parts.

Will Halpin [: 00:12:54

There are, you know, get things done parts. There are efficiency parts and also too, that can come along with that. Are people pleasing parts or perfectionistic parts or really strong, harsh, critical parts that are tough love coaches that are like, get this, John, go, go, go. Right? And so those are kind of like day to day, get you through the things, right? And firefighters operate differently in their protective way. So think about a firefighter does, right? So a firefighter comes to your house when there's a fire. Do they knock gingerly on the door and say, excuse me, I think there's a fire, may I come in?

Shawna Rodrigues [: 00:13:28

They bring it.

Will Halpin [: 00:13:29

They do, right? They knock down windows, they break down doors. Like they burst in and they are like, get the fire out. So those protectors operate in our lives is like short term solution, right? We're not thinking about the beautiful wallpaper in your front room. We're just get the fire out, right?

Shawna Rodrigues [: 00:13:48

So like damage whatever you need to just salvage whatever you have to correct.

Will Halpin [: 00:13:51

So when we think about this kind of protector, these parts show up in ways of like raging parts that yell and scream, or parts that maybe want to use alcohol or get drunk or use substances like drugs. And they're more subtle firefighters too, that are about just kind of taking things out, right? So like sleepy parts or if you talk about dissociation, which is a symptom people experience when they have trauma, when it's too much, they start to get soupy and kind of like fade out or sort of feel depersonalized. So these protector parts, both these firefighters, these managers, are typically protecting what are called exiles. And exiles in the family system are typically parts that contain trauma or original burdens. As we like to say, or wounds.

Shawna Rodrigues [: 00:14:43

Original burdens. I don't think I've heard that term before.

Will Halpin [: 00:14:45

Burdens. I think that's the term more. But like early on, a lot of like early childhood wounding, you know, different kinds of traumas that people go through. And these exiles carry that. So they are the ones that carry the heat and the pain of the system. Right. And so these protectors rally to exile these exiles or keep them at bay. So if you think about if there's an exile or a young part of you that feels like I'm unworthy, I'm a failure, I'm not good enough, there may be a manager that's like, we're going to be perfectionistic to keep that feeling at day, right? So they're all about being perfectionists in their work life and their family life.

Will Halpin [: 00:15:26

Obviously, people with perfectionism can develop issues with anxiety, right? So, you know, that perfectionistic part is keeping that exile that carries this sense of worthlessness and not good enough at bay. And when the managers aren't doing a sufficient enough job at keeping that pain at base. So the perfectionistic part is going, going, going. But that feeling of like, oh, I'm not worthy or I'm worthless is just so perfection found that that's when the firefighters are like, okay, like, we're gonna bust down the doors and we're gonna knock this out. We're gonna go drink a six pack of beer tonight, or we're going to, you know, get sleepy and just avoid and fall asleep and like just check out from the world. Or we're gonna get angry and like punch a wall or we're gonna drive really fast and road rage or something. So that's kind of.

Shawna Rodrigues [: 00:16:17

Or start a fight with my partner and start. Or the house.

Will Halpin [: 00:16:19

Yeah, any of that stuff, right. So that's how they sort of can interact the different parts.

Shawna Rodrigues [: 00:16:25

So mostly protectors and exiles, and those are the primary.

Will Halpin [: 00:16:29

Right. So the concept itself is really important here. So if you think about my example with the orchestra, right. We have a conductor, right. When I talk to folks about hearts and ifs, I liken to these protectors and these exiles as different members of the orchestra, like the violins, the flutes and such. And the self is the conductor. Like that is the orienting force that parts can rally toward in a optimally functioning system where they attune to the conductor and the conductor guides them. Typically when I'm working with folks, you know, helping them develop and get in touch with self, they kind of find the quality of self.

Will Halpin [: 00:17:08

So it's Sort of this sense of, like, calmness, or you're sort of in this place of, like, they call it Zen. You can be sort of in this quiet, focused, sort of courageous, compassionate, curious place that allows you to look at your parts and engage with them with, like, that sort of calm experience that I want to know. Having compassion, having this sense of just openness.

Shawna Rodrigues [: 00:17:39

This orchestra analogy is fabulous because I almost feel like in our lives, you feel like you're in the audience just watching this orchestra doing whatever they're going to do when you have no control over it, or you're in the orchestra trying to figure out which part you're supposed to be playing at what time, instead of actually being like, no, my role as a conductor. And when you hear about things, because we hear about meditation and mindfulness in different ways of trying to get out and be more of the observer and, you know, see things, that understanding that is our role. And then we have these parts that we're supposed to be the one that is actually in charge and acknowledging and leading these and seeing these and holding them all at once. I love it. That's absolutely brilliant.

Will Halpin [: 00:18:18

Yeah, yeah, yeah. And that's the concept. This constraint model, too, we help remove constraints to access self. And one of the core beliefs is that everyone has a self. Certain folks, sure, it may take a little bit more digging to get there, but we all have this capacity for self. And I think even, I mean, the founder of the model, Dick Schwartz, taught, I mean, a lot of his foundational work. He worked with eating disorders as well as in families around that. And some of his clients who were suffering severely from, like, anorexia and such like that, like, you know, in hospitals, monitored and everything, were able to access self, right? So folks who even had the most significant challenges are able to get to that.

Will Halpin [: 00:18:58

That is the goal in therapeutic work. And that may take a good amount of time. It may be quicker or faster, but the idea is helping clients or helping you. And as a therapist, you also need to do your own work. But, like, getting in touch with those qualities of self, they call them the eight Cs. So we have calmness, curiosity, clarity, compassion, confidence, courage, creativity, and connectedness. When you think about what those qualities embody, right? Embody that. Like, that's sort of the essence of self, this sense of an entity, a being that can be an observer and a place to orient, like the conductor of this orchestra.

Will Halpin [: 00:19:41

But it's also ever present as well as like an orienting force. Our goal in the work is to help build or help Clients remove the constraints to get in touch with these qualities. Because it is from these qualities that we start to engage these parts, right? And I mean, your example of using the drum beating is a great one because again, when clients come to us, right, like the drums have taken over the orchestra, there's not a conductor. The conductor is not present or at that moment or is overtaken by the drumbeat of anxiety or depression or anger. And so helping clients access, get in touch, embody, get in touch with those qualities of self, remove those constraints. Then the conductor can attune to that drum and start to build that connection. So you think about when the conductor engages with a member, right? It's very animated. The conductor locks eyes with that person and it's like fast, fast, slow, slow, like kind of guides the vibe.

Will Halpin [: 00:20:40

And so as you get more in touch with those eight Cs or get a critical mass, as they say, of those qualities, then there's an amazing experience of flow where you can just feel it in the room. Like the field just sort of shifts. The client goes, oh, I see how hard that anxiety part is working. Or I really want to know more like, what is this trying to do for me, right? Like, you come from those places. It's a softer, it's an open place, and there's a feeling of flow and it's less jagged, it's less rough. And from there, folks can get to understand and work with these parts. And conceptually, in this work, right, we often are dealing with protectors first. Those are the ones who often show up.

Will Halpin [: 00:21:30

I mean, certainly exiles, you can get there too. But you know, as you work with these protectors and they, you build a relationship with them. So you're like, how long have you been doing this for me? When did you start doing this for me and why? What was going on in my life that you started to do this job, Made this.

Shawna Rodrigues [: 00:21:46

Yeah, I made this necessary, right?

Will Halpin [: 00:21:48

And as you get to know these parts, so often, I like to joke for my clients, it's like these protectors, these managers just want to become employee of the month. They want their name about the cash register, right? So it's like finally. So, and this has been my experience, even in my own work with my parts, is these protectors, like, thank you. You finally see me, like, you just yell at me. You get mad at me when I come at you and say, oh, the people at that you're going to meet, they're not going to like you. They're going to think you're this. They think you're that you're finally seeing what I've been trying to do. Because all this time, other parts are like, oh, go away, right? Other parts fight.

Will Halpin [: 00:22:20

That's the as fights can happen in families, right? You know, there's a part that starts saying, oh, you can't do this. You shouldn't, you know, or part that says, oh, that. You know, people think this, that, or the other. There's another part of you that goes, oh, shut up. Why? Stop talking that way, right? These. These fights, right? So finally, when sel attunes to these parts and these other parts aren't pushing them out, they're like, you're seeing me, you're appreciating me. You're seeing me.

Shawna Rodrigues [: 00:22:46

You're letting them be employee of the.

Will Halpin [: 00:22:48

Month and letting them be employee of the month.

Shawna Rodrigues [: 00:22:49

I know why they can't be employee of the month with that specific behavior.

Will Halpin [: 00:22:53

Well, it's funny, if you go at it with an agenda, my experience is they just kind of push back, right? They just say, well, this is why I have to do this. Like, come on. But when you work with them and you listen and you hear them and you attune to them and you start to notice them in your day to day, right? So as you build this awareness and you go through your day, it's like, oh, wait, there's that. That part that likes to say, be careful. They will think this. They will think that. You're like, oh, there you are. I remember what you do.

Will Halpin [: 00:23:19

And you take that one moment and notice then that part is softens a little bit. It may start to be a little quieter. And as the part feels more attuned and listened to, then you're like, what are you protecting me from? Yeah, yeah. And then that protector can be. Or that manager can be. Well, I don't want you to be absolutely embarrassed and just full of shame. And it's like, oh, okay, so you're trying to protect me from shame and embarrassment. Is there a part that carries some of those burdens that you're protecting? And you know, again, like, maybe more nuanced than that, but then you may find yourself getting in touch.

Will Halpin [: 00:23:57

They're like, there's an exile who carries stories of being burdened by shame or embarrassment that has galvanized this manager into its job. But again, it's a negotiation. We just don't go, oh, great, thanks for coming about this, exile. Can I go? Manager's like, wait a second. I've been protecting this exile for years.

Shawna Rodrigues [: 00:24:17

Yeah.

Will Halpin [: 00:24:17

I need to build trust. My Little fun equation that I tell clients is trust, is consistency and behavior over time. So as you work with these protectors and you get to that relationship, eventually they will step back and they will let you work with that exile and help attune, just with all those same eight Cs. And you listen and you attune to this exile. And that's where burdens can start to be lifted. We can start to shift the potency of the burdens carried by that exile part.

Shawna Rodrigues [: 00:24:51

That's amazing. And I'm sure that it makes, like, a big difference. And it sounds like this is a element of human conditioning resonating with all of us in different ways. If we all have these mechanisms and it just goes to extreme levels that become hard to function, challenges that become detrimental to our lives.

Will Halpin [: 00:25:12

Right. And of course, like, it sounds so nice when I describe it that way, but, I mean, it may take weeks, months to get there. It's hard, but it's pretty powerful when you can get to those places. So these exiles, and this is not always the case, but, you know, frequently they're from younger times of our lives, younger parts of us. I have little wills, I have clients who have, you know, little versions of themselves who are, like, riddled with shame or riddled with fear from various things that have happened. Then it becomes this sort of loving, tender, relational experience. Just like that protector wanted to be seen and validated and fallen in love with. As my supervisor says, around, like, you see me, you gave me employee of the month.

Will Halpin [: 00:25:54

That this exile is like, you can finally relate to this little vulnerable part. And just like a parent tending to their child when they've had a nightmare or a kid who's scuffed their knee, like, come here, I got you. What happened today, talk to me about. It becomes this very relationally healing experience. So it's again, that flow state, when people are in that and you watch them and they intuitively know what to do oftentimes with these clients. But what needs to happen now? I need to give this one a hug. Will they accept it? Yeah. Or like, I need to do this, I need to do that.

Will Halpin [: 00:26:26

Like, when clients are in that state of flow, I mean, again, like, their self is in charge. I'm not doing anything. I'm kind of just. I'm a witness. Right. And it's again, it speaks to that concept of the constraint model.

Shawna Rodrigues [: 00:26:39

But, yeah, sounds very powerful.

Will Halpin [: 00:26:42

Yeah. I like to say too, that. That, you know, when you're dealing with these different parts. Right. I feel like I say they're really trying to help you or they need help from you. Right. So those exiles, the ones who are like, help me, attend to me. Like a child crawling into their parents bed at night with a nightmare.

Will Halpin [: 00:26:59

Right. Or these protectors, like they said, we're trying to help. Can you see what I'm trying to do? Can you see why? And when you work with these exile parts, these protectors are watching and you say, hey, was that, you know that part that use critical statements to you is that part been watching you tend to this one? Yeah. How they reacting, you know? And what often or what can happen in this case is these protectors don't feel the need to be extreme. Right. Because sometimes these managers are forced into a role. Favorite protector part that I feel like is common in all of us. I know I certainly have had mine.

Will Halpin [: 00:27:34

I call our inner critics our critic parts. This is anecdotal. This is not by any chance research. But I was, I've worked with my clients over the years who with their inner critics. So often they're like, I'm yelling and I'm harsh. I'm tough love coaching you because no one's. You're not listening to me. Or I have to be this extreme.

Will Halpin [: 00:27:53

And when you get to know these protectors like this, trying to understand why they do, you can ask them like, well, you know, what do you like about your job? Actually, I get tired. Like, I don't like yelling at you. I really don't. I would rather just be like a motivational cheerleader, you know? And again, it's funny. I. I've actually heard that from a number of clients where these critics are like, I really don't want to yell at you. I want to be a cheerleader. I don't want to bang the drums really loud.

Will Halpin [: 00:28:18

I want to bang the drums in a way that supports the rest of the orchestra. Right. So as you heal these exiles, these managers, or even these firefighters can be in a more moderated role. Right. You might think, well, gosh, how is like using drugs or alcohol or getting blackout drunk? How does that part have a place? Right? But that part's like, I just want to stop the pain. I want you to just get away from the hurt. I don't want you to feel it. Right.

Shawna Rodrigues [: 00:28:44

Yeah.

Will Halpin [: 00:28:45

There are good ways to do that. There are great ways to take a break from pain or just to take a break. Right. I'm gonna go to this beach. I'm gonna go on this hike in the mountains, or I'm gonna go and listen to music in A bathtub with bubbles and candles. Right. There are great ways to take breaks. There are great ways to get away.

Will Halpin [: 00:29:02

Yeah.

Shawna Rodrigues [: 00:29:03

But when you're trying to protect an exile that you're trying to hide away, nothing else will do it. No, nothing else will do it.

Will Halpin [: 00:29:10

Yeah.

Shawna Rodrigues [: 00:29:10

A bathtub with bubbles is not gonna. Gonna keep that exile away. And so it makes sense why you need something that significant that a firefighter just cut that off and. And to make sure that there's enough.

Will Halpin [: 00:29:22

Right. Because those exiles are so burdened. They're just screaming in pain. Right. And they're so loud, These protectors, like, I've gotta double down. Like, bubble baz ain't gonna cut it. It's a six pack of beer or, you know, a liter of vodka or something. So as we hopefully can help those exiles of burden, there's a whole process with that where you witness them and you help them release these burdens in this relational way.

Will Halpin [: 00:29:43

Right. That hopefully, again. And what can happen is these managers can soften. Right. Critics become cheerleaders or parts that want to fall asleep. Just find other ways to take breaks or perfectionistic parts, Learn how to motivate us to a certain point and then say, okay, that's good enough. Right.

Shawna Rodrigues [: 00:30:06

So, you know, other ways to serve the purpose.

Will Halpin [: 00:30:09

Right.

Shawna Rodrigues [: 00:30:09

Once they realize what purpose they're trying to serve, like what they're trying to do, there's other ways to do it.

Will Halpin [: 00:30:13

Yeah.

Shawna Rodrigues [: 00:30:14

That's amazing. And it makes sense why this is really taken off. Because how long have you been connected to this?

Will Halpin [: 00:30:19

I mean, it's been around. Gosh, I wish I could give the time, but I know it's been around since the 90s, and to quote me on that, but I was trained in 2018, so it went four years. I feel like it's really changed the way I interact with clients, with the way I think about, quote, unquote, mental health diagnoses, Right. The medicalization of it all. And it's really just one of models that's completely shifted the way I think about clinical therapy.

Shawna Rodrigues [: 00:30:48

Everyone I know who's done stuff with it, it's real impact to them, and they've been very passionate about it. And the way they see things, I think it is a desire to be like, oh, my go, things make sense now. Instead of having to pathologize everything, and everything being an issue of, like, oh, my gosh, like, things make sense. And there's a way that I can accept and see myself in a way that's really healthy and makes everybody makes sense. Everyone has those parts.

Will Halpin [: 00:31:12

Yeah.

Shawna Rodrigues [: 00:31:12

And how strong those protectors get and how urgent their responses get and how dangerous the responses get to be able to function and do the things in life you want to do and how debilitating they get so you can function is what the question becomes. And so that's why it's amazing to have this way of everyone be able to look at that spectrum and how they can support themselves.

Will Halpin [: 00:31:31

Yeah.

Shawna Rodrigues [: 00:31:32

So with ifs, I know there's a wait list to even be trained in it.

Will Halpin [: 00:31:36

Yeah.

Shawna Rodrigues [: 00:31:37

And probably it's hard to get supports in it, but there's like a website and stuff people can look.

Will Halpin [: 00:31:41

Yeah, yeah. The IFS Institute. Just Google IFS Institute. That is their main page. They have all sorts of resources, articles, videos. The original founder, Dr. Dick Schwartz, has a number of videos of him practicing the model and showing him working with protectors and exiles and helping clients get in touch with self. And certainly trainings for therapists.

Will Halpin [: 00:32:04

There's also a movement to train folks who are not therapists too. And there are. I was at a conference in IFS back in 2019, and they were talking about this model they'd been bringing to China, and they've been working on training just folks who are interested in helping. Right. Like lay folks, non professionals and helping people. And it's regular, rigorous. It's a lot of work on yourself. I mean, a big part of IFS is also as a therapist, doing your own work, because.

Will Halpin [: 00:32:30

Yeah, if you're not in a place of curiosity, compassion, and you're operating from apart. Right. You're going to impact the client's ability to get in touch with those things. Right. You know, it's great that the movement in this is trying to say, look, there's. There's wait lists, there's all this, but we want to give more people access to this. I can't speak comprehensively to that, what they're doing, but I know what's going on. I know people who are dietitians or nutritionists or physical therapists who are getting trained in this because not only, as you very well know, parts don't just show up as anxiety or depression or anger or what have you.

Will Halpin [: 00:33:11

They can show up in really big physical symptoms. Right. Yeah. You know, we know that. Mind, body, so interconnected. Right. So people are like, I have a pain in my shoulder that will not go away. And manipulating it through physical therapy in and of itself does not stop it.

Will Halpin [: 00:33:27

You get to know the part that is using the pain in the shoulder or the part that's in There, let's get to know that pain. Let's go toward it. Right. Let's get curious. So again, therapists who have that sort of construct, it's not just bone, broken bone, fixed muscle loosened muscle tightened. Right. It's not. So black and white parts may use the body to signal stuff.

Will Halpin [: 00:33:50

Right?

Shawna Rodrigues [: 00:33:50

Yeah.

Will Halpin [: 00:33:51

They're like, okay, I'm girding you against danger or I'm girding you against threat. Right. So the part tightens and anyway, I'm getting off on a tangent, but again, just this concept of more folks beyond just therapists and psychologists getting trained is something that the IFS Institute is working towards. And like I said, I wish I could speak more to what they're doing in China. It's been a while since I've looked at what they're doing. But again, it's a comprehensive way of giving this to folks so that they can just kid poor people healed.

Shawna Rodrigues [: 00:34:25

Yeah. No, and again, my passion for folks listening, but my passion is in early childhood mental health. And as you're saying this, that we always look at kids and looked at the. What's behind the behavior is like the whole thing with kids. And so like me going like and thinking of a foster mom I know has a child that's, you know, spreading poop across the the walls after visits with mom and me thinking about, you know, the protector parts and how those things could go in with working with young kids even. It's like how it all integrates. I love how things integrate. So yes, it has me thinking about all those things.

Will Halpin [: 00:34:55

Yeah. And there's whole trainings on working with children. Right?

Shawna Rodrigues [: 00:34:58

Yeah.

Will Halpin [: 00:34:58

Little kids, middle, middle childhood teenagers. Right. There's all. And again, I can't speak to that because I don't work with that population. I work with adults.

Shawna Rodrigues [: 00:35:05

But yeah, there's a lot to it. Yes. And I have too much on my plate to get too excited and interested in that. But I love it. There any like books that you've read around it that you would recommend or that you can think, especially for somebody who's that's not super.

Will Halpin [: 00:35:20

Okay. So there's a book called Self Therapy. I know it sounds kind of generic and I believe the author's name is Jay Early. J A Y E A R L E Y. And what I like about this book is it self guided. Ifs really. Yeah. And I think it's a, I recommend it to most of my clients so who are like eager to learn more.

Will Halpin [: 00:35:47

It helps to sort of. It introduces them to the language Introduces them to the parts and the names and sort of carries them through some experiential exercises that kind of whets the appetite or gives them a chance to practice. Because again, it's the idea of it is you do it in sessions with clients, but hopefully on their own. Right. They're like walking through their day like, oh, I'm so mad at myself. Oh, wait, I just heard that voice that said that to me. I wonder what that's about. Right.

Will Halpin [: 00:36:13

So teaching clients to do their own parts work, right?

Shawna Rodrigues [: 00:36:16

Yeah.

Will Halpin [: 00:36:17

Empowering them to do the work on their own.

Shawna Rodrigues [: 00:36:19

That's amazing. I love that. You should have known you would have a book. But I love the other book and we'll try and put that in the show notes so people can get a link to it in the notes so they can definitely find that book and be able to access it.

Will Halpin [: 00:36:29

There's another one too, because there is ifs therapy for couples, right? Like, yeah, if IO it's called you are the one you've been waiting for.

Shawna Rodrigues [: 00:36:39

Oh.

Will Halpin [: 00:36:40

It helps clients learn towards tending to their own parts and not expecting their partner to be the primary source of healing those parts. Right? Yeah. So. And I'm not saying that we don't need partners and they can't help us, Right? But.

Shawna Rodrigues [: 00:36:57

Yeah, but that concept of recognizing that you can't expect that from the human also, you're gonna be disappointed in them and in yourself and the relationship's gonna.

Will Halpin [: 00:37:04

Be challenged by it or it becomes the primary source. Right. In the book, these this example called the magic kitchen. So this is not an original thing. This is what I read where this idea that if you have a kitchen where you make standard meals, like you have good home cooked meals, right? Like your parts have a place that they can always eat at. Right. They always have a place to go. And when you have a partner, like, oh, there's a different cuisine down the street.

Will Halpin [: 00:37:28

Wow. I can enjoy Thai food or I can enjoy, you know, Southern home cooking, or I can enjoy seafood. Right. But if that kitchen is closed, they aren't going to starve, Right. They can go back home and they have meatloaf and potatoes or whatever to have that primary source where you can attend to your own parts.

Shawna Rodrigues [: 00:37:49

Right.

Will Halpin [: 00:37:50

So yeah, it's. You're the one you've been waiting for.

Shawna Rodrigues [: 00:37:52

I'll put it in the show notes as well. I love it. I love resources. This has been very valuable. Thank you so much. I think it's been great for our listeners that hear more about internal family systems and how it's a beneficial theory way of looking at things and viable to look more into getting resources around it if it is intriguing to them. So along these lines, we always talk about self care in our episodes. So we have our little self care spotlight.

Shawna Rodrigues [: 00:38:15

So what do you do for self care?

Will Halpin [: 00:38:17

Well, well, I do a variety of things for self care. So I really love lifting weights. So I lift weights. I'm an aficionado, a CrossFit. What can I say? So I go and move heavy weights. I learn how to practice technical lifts because it's really enjoyable. I will go to a mountain and go hiking. I'll go for a walk in the woods.

Will Halpin [: 00:38:39

I'll go for a swim in a lake. Those are like, yeah, anything in nature just put me in nature in one shape, way, shape or form. Even just like standing in a park. That works. So those are my main places for self care.

Shawna Rodrigues [: 00:38:55

So you love the outdoors and love being outside. So it's really nourishing and giving back to you then to be doing those things.

Will Halpin [: 00:39:03

Yes, that is my number one go to. And every time it works. I've learned that one of my favorite things to do I recently started doing was going camping by myself. So I will go on a Saturday or Friday and I'll. I'll give my partner like the information where I'm at so people know where I am. But then I disappear for two days and I'm on my own in the woods and I'm hiking by myself. I'm cooking meals by myself. I'm sitting by the fire by myself, myself.

Will Halpin [: 00:39:28

And it's a really good chance for me just to be quiet and be in nature. You know, I check in with my own parts, spend time with my parts in that sort of uninterrupted, no stimulus place.

Shawna Rodrigues [: 00:39:42

So that's so important. That's amazing. And as you may know, because he might have listened to the show before, I don't know. But you may know, maybe I also give all of my guests a copy of one of the Color of Grit coloring books as to add to their self care repertoire.

Will Halpin [: 00:39:59

Yes.

Shawna Rodrigues [: 00:39:59

So would you enjoy a copy of the Color of Grit's Vintage Mermaid and Magnificent Ocean? Or you've got this, which is a collection of quotes that you get to color in. Which would you prefer?

Will Halpin [: 00:40:10

I think I'm gonna go with the quotes.

Shawna Rodrigues [: 00:40:11

Wonderful. We will make sure to get you a copy of that. Yes. Thank you. And so then the other thing that we do at the end of our episode, which we call kind of Grit Wit, is giving a takeaway for everyone is something they could walk away from this episode and be able to kind of apply and take forward. So what would be an exercise or something folks can take away from this that they can do?

Will Halpin [: 00:40:31

Yeah, I'll pull out my little phrase I love to use a lot. Get curious, not furious. So when you're going through your day and you have this experience, right, like, you get flooded with anxiety, or you get like this critical voice saying, oh, you're this, you're that. I invite you. Instead of saying, oh, oh, I hate when I think that way, or oh, I hate when I get anxious, I invite you to instead get being furious at that. Get curious. So take a moment. It may take a little bit of a moment because you may be having.

Will Halpin [: 00:41:02

You may feel overtaken, but as soon as you get a little space from that, say, huh, I wonder what that was about. Start to get curious about the part of you that was trying to tell you something, that was trying to help you. Probably in some way, although it feels a little dubious at the moment.

Shawna Rodrigues [: 00:41:19

Yes. And I love the term protector. So if you're stuck and like, why did I get like that? How was that trying to protect me in some way? Like, how was that hopeful in some way that I would have that strong of a reaction to that? Like, how could that be helpful?

Will Halpin [: 00:41:33

Yeah, right. Like I said, get curious, not furious. It could be a protector. It could be an exile crying out for attention or help. Right? Like a little one saying, I feel so worthless. Yeah, right. So, yeah, so get curious about it. It.

Will Halpin [: 00:41:48

Don't push it away. Don't get judgmental. Don't get critical. Try to be curious. Now, if you are judgmental, critical, that is another part, and that is okay. And if you. If you cannot find spaciousness to. To not be critical, then get curious about your judgmental part.

Will Halpin [: 00:42:06

Get curious about the critical part of you that wants to just get rid of that other one. Being a little meta, I guess.

Shawna Rodrigues [: 00:42:13

Another setback. And aside from that, another part. All right, so we'll go with for the next two solid days. So whenever you're looking at this, do a mental note for the next two solid days to kind of evaluate for yourself of each time that you start to respond to something. And then check in with yourself in two days and say, have I been doing that for the last two days? So when you were listening to this, do a mental marker of 2 days from now to see if you've managed to actually remember to stop and be curious when those things happen and give yourself another marker to Try and stop and be curious, not furious.

Will Halpin [: 00:42:44

Curious, not furious.

Shawna Rodrigues [: 00:42:46

I like it. I very much like it. And we'll have in the show notes those books so that you can check those out. And so people want to be able to connect with you. I know that you are in private practice and aren't open to clients right now because you're very full. Right. If people do want to connect with you, what is a way that they can connect with you? Your website, sure.

Will Halpin [: 00:43:06

My guess is my website, which is willhalpen.com I am a therapist. I am practicing in Massachusetts and Connecticut, so that does limit me too. And that's probably the best way to find me.

Shawna Rodrigues [: 00:43:16

So people can look on your website, wilhelpen.com and we'll have that in the notes as well. And that's the way to reach out to you. The best place. We'll also have in the show notes the IFS website. It's a great place to find more information about them and their resources and their nationwide.

Will Halpin [: 00:43:33

Yeah.

Shawna Rodrigues [: 00:43:34

And so international. So there should be resources. You mentioned China. So there should be resources wherever you are listening to this to possibly look into those resources through that website. So it's probably, if you're really curious. Yeah. The best place for you guys to dig in and learn more about that.

Will Halpin [: 00:43:47

I highly encourage that. Yes.

Shawna Rodrigues [: 00:43:48

Yes. Thank you so much. It's been so valuable. I really value your time and I appreciate you chatting this much.

Will Halpin [: 00:43:54

It's been such a joy chatting with you, Shawna, as always.

Shawna Rodrigues [: 00:44:00

I value the time we shared together today. Thank you for making time to be here and to continue taking steps towards growth and bringing more ease into your life. I'd love for us to stay connected on Instagram, @shawnapodcasts or @the.grit.show. There's even a link in bio at @the.grit.show where you can send me an email to let me know what you thought. Today's episode. Hearing from you helps to make the effort that goes into producing these episodes worthwhile. After all, you're why I'm here. And since it's been a while since you've heard this, you are the only one of you that this world has got.

Shawna Rodrigues [: 00:44:43

And that really does mean something. I hope you realize that I'll be back again soon. And I hope you're following along or subscribed so that you'll know when and be here too.